By now, I'm sure most of you have heard the story about the polygamist sect in Texas that was raided after an anonymous phone call by an allegedly abused female. I have a question for everyone, I just want to gauge how many people think as I do. My opinion is that the government had vastly over-reached their authority. Is that really all it takes in some states, an anonymous complaint? All the children were taken from their parents until the parents were cleared of abuse. Seems like a dangerous precedent to me. Several women had children while being "detained", the government refused to believe that one of the women was an adult, turns out she was. However, her baby was taken from her as most of those who had given birth while detained. Some of these women were told that they would not get their children back unless they renounced their religion and gave up their religious practices. They were told this in America. Would the government tell Muslims this? Would they tell Buddists this? Would they tell any other religion that they must turn from their faith in order to regain custody of their children? Now, just to set things straight, I'm not a polygamist (one wife is clearly enough nagging for me ) nor am I a member of the Later Day Saints. I'm just a bit alarmed at what seems like the gross over-reach of child protective services and the state. What is your opinion?
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." Ronald Reagan
I share your concern; this has not been handled well at all by the authorities. Due process seems to have been thrown out of the window.
Of course, the secrecy and apparent deception practiced by the men and women involved doesn't help either.
As for your contention that this would not have happened if they were non-christian, I have to disagree.
The specific practices that are in-question - polygamy and underage marriage/child abuse/statutory rape - are illegal under US law. If those are the practices they are being asked to renounce, I agree.
So far as I am concerned it doesn't matter if they are Christian, Muslim, Wiccan, or Nudist Sun Worshipers - illegal is illegal.
So many cigars, so little time...
Posts: 2973 | Location: South of the Mason/Dixon Line | Registered: September 24, 2007
Originally posted by Presley: Some of these women were told that they would not get their children back unless they renounced their religion and gave up their religious practices.
I never heard anything about this. And since it is so obviously a breach of constitutional rights, I find it hard to believe a government agency would give this kind of amunition for the sect's lawyers to use against them.
I have to agree with Poet tho, illegal is illegal and children are protected by laws regardless of religion.
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Some people see the glass half full. Others see it half empty. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
Just because someone's opinion is different than yours, doesn't make them wrong.
A man who WILL NOT to reason is a bigot, A man who CANNOT reason is a fool, A man who DARES NOT reason is a slave
Originally posted by Presley: Some of these women were told that they would not get their children back unless they renounced their religion and gave up their religious practices.
I never heard anything about this. And since it is so obviously a breach of constitutional rights, I find it hard to believe a government agency would give this kind of amunition for the sect's lawyers to use against them.
I have to agree with Poet tho, illegal is illegal and children are protected by laws regardless of religion.
Don't get me wrong, if children were being abused I say those people should fry. However, what I am saying is that there wasn't sufficient evidence that was occuring. Also, the kids were taken from parents and separated without proof or due process.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." Ronald Reagan
Originally posted by Presley: However, what I am saying is that there wasn't sufficient evidence that was occuring. Also, the kids were taken from parents and separated without proof or due process.
I share your concerns here.
This should have been carefully (albeit quickly) investigated, with very careful, transparent and public due-process.
One thing to consider, though - in most child abuse cases, the evidence is not clear and obvious. You're dealing with kids who are often scared and uncertain as to what is actually right and wrong, who are also in many cases trying to protect their abusers.
It puts the investigators in an awkward position - d@mned if they do, d@mned if they don't.
So many cigars, so little time...
Posts: 2973 | Location: South of the Mason/Dixon Line | Registered: September 24, 2007
Something in this whole affair twinged my government-skeptic bone from the beginning. Especially since, at least in my viewing the news (I don't follow the case anymore), the person who tipped off the authorities was a girl claiming to be abused, then she was just an anonymous girl, then they weren't sure who she was. Seeing women and children being herded onto buses and then hearing stories about how they were being separated regardless of any wrongdoing being found raises an alarm with me.
If children are being abused, they should certainly be removed from such an abusive environment. If they are being abused, not just on suspicion because someone made an anonymous phone call. The wholesale disruption of this community irks me a bit. Moreso because it's happening in my home state.
"38?? Fercrissakes, I have underwear older than you!" -Jack White
Posts: 180 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA | Registered: January 08, 2008
Being that this is the same sect who's leader is doing 10 years for two counts of being an accomplice to rape (by forcing underage girls to marry and (you know)) There was probably reasonable suspicion before this "phone call" was ever recieved. Anytime there's an investigation like this there's going to be problems with process. It isn't right but it happens.
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Some people see the glass half full. Others see it half empty. I see a glass that's twice as big as it needs to be.
Just because someone's opinion is different than yours, doesn't make them wrong.
A man who WILL NOT to reason is a bigot, A man who CANNOT reason is a fool, A man who DARES NOT reason is a slave
That ruling only applied to 38 of 200 parents involved...claims from the rest are still pending...(not that that makes it right)...
Not in a sarcastic way...but do any of you credit this group as a "religion" that deserves Constitutional protection?
If it's a religion, is the pologamy ok? If it's not, does this group deserve any protection? (that would make every adult a conspirator and/or accomplice)
Thoughts?
Religion is probably going to be the hottest topic facing the SCOTUS in the next 20 years...does this situation spark the fuse?
I agree with Presley that this situation is extremely messed up...however I think the govt. workers acted in what they believed was in the best interests of the children (that doesn't make it right, either)
This is simply a sad situaiton all the way around.
jag
quote:
We should be too big to take offense and too noble to give it. ~ Abraham Lincoln
Posts: 1375 | Location: Moving in December | Registered: September 15, 2006
Originally posted by jagmqt: That ruling only applied to 38 of 200 parents involved...claims from the rest are still pending...(not that that makes it right)...
Not in a sarcastic way...but do any of you credit this group as a "religion" that deserves Constitutional protection?
If it's a religion, is the pologamy ok? If it's not, does this group deserve any protection? (that would make every adult a conspirator and/or accomplice)
Thoughts?
Religion is probably going to be the hottest topic facing the SCOTUS in the next 20 years...does this situation spark the fuse?
I agree with Presley that this situation is extremely messed up...however I think the govt. workers acted in what they believed was in the best interests of the children (that doesn't make it right, either)
This is simply a sad situaiton all the way around.
jag
I must agree that several things trouble me in this.
a) A sect. I'm against those, whatever they are : Scientologists, the Waco bunch, the different mass suicide bunches, whatever...
b) Polygamy. Isn't it illegal also in the US ? It is here... This kind of stuff can take very unhealthy forms...
c) Child abuse... What do you need to intervene ? In this context ?
________________________ "Tobacco is my favorite vegetable." --FZ
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." --FZ too
I truly don't know what to think about this whole story.
I absolutely agree that if child abuse was occurring, it needs to be stopped sooner than later.
As to the methods that were chosen to "investigate" it, I think the Government was a bit heavy handed. But on the other hand, I don't know how they could have gotten to ground truth any other way (not that they HAVE gotten to ground truth yet - maybe never truly will get there)
As for polygamy, I guess my opinion is NIMBY (not in my backyard) but I am all for freedom of religion.
Not a very helpful post, I suppose, but I haven't been following it closely enough to have a better opinion.
Posts: 1057 | Location: New England | Registered: August 03, 2007
There are some things you have to take into consideration here. First of it took place in Texas, you would be surprised to see what goes on in Texas. 2nd thing is that guy who started this sect was from the same sect in Arizona and Utah and he is now in prison. American does not like these type of religious organizations, why you ask because it is a government withing a government. That is always bad thing my friend.
For the pastseveral years there has been a "good faith/public safety" exemption to the 4th amemdment. Preventing another 9/11 is so important that if we have to bypass the constitution its just collateral damage.
After the child sex abuse scandals (mostly involving the clergy) the rule was do anything to protect children and the constitutional protections are weaker if children are the perceived victims.
It seems like the exceptions ar outnumbering the rules.
Good people sleep at night knowing there are rough men ready to do violence on their behalf
Posts: 1702 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: November 19, 2004
I am posting this seperately because it is not really part of the above but related.
If the trend is to not define marriage as "between one man and one woman" then how can the government prevent polygamy. You can't say all polygamists are bad. It works in some countries and contexts.
How do we say ythat some forms of marriage are valid and others are not. Not too many years ago marruiages between members of different races were illegal.
Good people sleep at night knowing there are rough men ready to do violence on their behalf
Posts: 1702 | Location: Connecticut | Registered: November 19, 2004
While I agree that the inital complaint did need to be investigated because:
1) The leader of the sect, Warren Jeffs, has in the past forced underage girls to marry much older men and engage in sex with them. Plus he also ran from the law. If he thought what he was doing wasn't wrong, why would he run?
2) Underage girls in the Texas sect were also forced to do the same.
3) Kids there could not clearly identify who their mother and father were (that's not a healthy start to life).
This was a no-win situation. You have a complaint of abuse about a religios sect who's doctrine promotes ideals that are illegal according to the many state and federal laws. You can err on the side of caution and do what was done and catch hell for acting too strongly or you can "wait and see". The problem with "wait and see" is that if down the road, proof does surface, the gov't catches hell for not acting on the complaint and allowing the abuse to continue while nothing is done to stop it.
Social services is a not a pleasent job that requires walking on a razor's edge. I ahve a few friends that work for CPS (Child Protective Services). It's a "your damned if you and damned if you don't" job. You're going to catch hell no matter what decision you make. Either from the parents when the decision to take a child away is made or from the press when the decision is made to leave a child in an situation where you know abuse is happening, but can't PROVE it is and something life-threatening happens to that child.
People then ask, "Why wasn't something done to protect that child?" Reason is two fold: a child, by nature does not want to be seperated from his or her parents and most often will not say anything bad about them. Second, abusers are very good at hiding their evidence. The know the system and how to exploit it's loopholes. They are calculating, despicible people who deserve to have the crap beat out of them until their a bloody mess, but at the same time are protected by the bill of rights and know it all too well.
---------- Back by request:
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Posts: 1570 | Location: Medford, NY | Registered: July 18, 2007
Jeff Warren and crew have created an abomination of a religion based solely on growing your own young girls for the sexual gratification of older men. They are also importing these home made girls from Alberta Canada, and the Canadian Government needs to grow some kahunas and shut this pervert sect down.
Genetic testing has proven the incest, and the genetic disorders back up this proof. As well the 100's of young men tossed out of the Warren compound to become a growing legion of "Lost Boys", who are now wards of the state. How convenient, pay no taxes, grow your own girls to rape, toss away any members to the US government to look after, and amass a small fortune.
Ah, religious freedom at the cost of the tax payer and the untold mental cost of 100's of young girls.
This whole nonsense religion needs to be shut down permanently. Just as perverts flocked to the Catholic church to rape young boys, perverted old men are attracted to the Polygamist sects to rape young teenage girls.
If this is religion, then I personally have a problem with God. This is fraud.
"Bud spelers of the word unight, and remumber: cabron is most abundent elemant in hte youknwverse"
) nor am I a member of the Later Day Saints. I'm just a bit alarmed at what seems like the gross over-reach of child protective services and the state. What is your opinion?
