This is a very good thread with well thought out statements and positions....I'll try not to screw it up.

Hoffma,
Don't let them give you too much heII. You are not alone or paranoid about guns with kids in the house. I couldn't justify / tolerate the risk (real or misconceived) of my having a gun in my house with three kids, and won't until they are gone (two years to go I pray). I sacrificed some peace of mind of being REALLY prepared to take on an intruder in favor of eliminating the possibility that my kids would lose their sense of judgment and responsibility for a mere fraction of a second and accidentally kill or injure someone with MY gun. Kids can use bad judgment despite warnings and training, in this case the ramifications can be severe and unrecoverable.

As far as visiting others houses with guns, I think demanding is not polite - you are the guest, but never let the kid out of your sight while you are there (that's also called being considerate of your host). You have the right to not visit also. I do believe it is every person's right to bear arms (some of you fought for our country to insure that and other rights continue, Thank You) and I would never impose my beliefs on someone else as long as they follow the laws concerning guns. And as far as "taking back the streets" where ever that may be, I think LTC is the way to go. The more LTC, the less opportunity that the bad guys have the advantage.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TSF,

Being an NRA certified Handgun and Personal Protection Instructor, I hear the question of having firearms in the house with children alot. I advise people that whether you have guns in the house or not they will come in contact with guns whether they are yours or at one of their friends houses. It will happen like it or not, so when they are around 12 years old and younger you need to child proof the gun. Once the are around 12 years old and older you need to gun proof the child. Teach them the dangers of firearms and and talk to them about gun safety. If you avoid talking to them about firearms or you have a just say no to guns attitude it can have bad consequences when they are teens and they find one at a friends house. You can't always guarantee they will never have contact with guns until they become adults.

I grew up in a house with firearms. As a kid some of the best times I had with my Dad was at a shooting range. I am very safty minded with weapons due to learning gun safty from my Dad at an early age.

When I turned 13 my Dad gave me a .22 rifle for my birthday. It stayed in my Dad's closit and I was not aloud to handle it unless he was present. I still have that rifle and it is one of my prized weapons in my collction.

I perceived flashman's observations to be about American black CULTURE (conditions and attitudes), not black race (color of skin, or country / continent of origin) or whatever you define as "race"....I'll re-read it, but racism is not what came to mind while reading..

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:
Being an NRA certified Handgun and Personal Protection Instructor, I hear the question of having firearms in the house with children alot. I advise people that whether you have guns in the house or not they will come in contact with guns whether they are yours or at one of their friends houses. It will happen like it or not, so when they are around 12 years old and younger you need to child proof the gun. Once the are around 12 years old and older you need to gun proof the child. Teach them the dangers of firearms and and talk to them about gun safety. If you avoid talking to them about firearms or you have a just say no to guns attitude it can have bad consequences when they are teens and they find one at a friends house. You can't always guarantee they will never have contact with guns until they become adults.

I grew up in a house with firearms. As a kid some of the best times I had with my Dad was at a shooting range. I am very safty minded with weapons due to learning gun safty from my Dad at an early age.

When I turned 13 my Dad gave me a .22 rifle for my birthday. It stayed in my Dad's closit and I was not aloud to handle it unless he was present. I still have that rifle and it is one of my prized weapons in my collction.

Good post raven, I agree with you 100% and plan on gun proofing my children. BTW, have you ever seen the video clip of the firearm instructor (I believe he was ATF or a police officer) who shot himself in the foot? Anyhow, he was teaching gun safety to a room full of middle school age kids and while showing them a handgun (I believe it was a 9mm) he accidentally discharged the weapon and shot his foot. I think you'd get a kick out of it.

quote:

Originally posted by TSFoster:
This is a very good thread with well thought out statements and positions....I'll try not to screw it up.

Hoffma,
Don't let them give you too much heII. You are not alone or paranoid about guns with kids in the house. I couldn't justify / tolerate the risk (real or misconceived) of my having a gun in my house with three kids, and won't until they are gone (two years to go I pray). I sacrificed some peace of mind of being REALLY prepared to take on an intruder in favor of eliminating the possibility that my kids would lose their sense of judgment and responsibility for a mere fraction of a second and accidentally kill or injure someone with MY gun. Kids can use bad judgment despite warnings and training, in this case the ramifications can be severe and unrecoverable.

As far as visiting others houses with guns, I think demanding is not polite - you are the guest, but never let the kid out of your sight while you are there (that's also called being considerate of your host). You have the right to not visit also. I do believe it is every person's right to bear arms (some of you fought for our country to insure that and other rights continue, Thank You) and I would never impose my beliefs on someone else as long as they follow the laws concerning guns. And as far as "taking back the streets" where ever that may be, I think LTC is the way to go. The more LTC, the less opportunity that the bad guys have the advantage.

Thanks Foster, these guys aren't being too rough, and I've valued their opinions. I'm not a rude/obnoxious guy, so I'd be tactful about asking friends/relatives to lock up their guns if I was bringing my kids with me. Most all of my friends/family members with guns already keep them locked away. Some of them keep a gun by their bed for protection such as my wifes father. We ask him if he'd lock the gun up when we visit, and he's always more than happy to. We don't demand he does it, but if we asked and he refused, we would think twice of bringing our kids into the house. Regardless, I'm a vigilant father and don't allow my kids to wander in others houses, even if it is their papa's house.

Yes, I have seen that video it's quite sad when you think about it. He got what he deserved though. I bet you he learned his lesson.

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:
Good post raven, I agree with you 100% and plan on gun proofing my children. BTW, have you ever seen the video clip of the firearm instructor (I believe he was ATF or a police officer) who shot himself in the foot? Anyhow, he was teaching gun safety to a room full of middle school age kids and while showing them a handgun (I believe it was a 9mm) he accidentally discharged the weapon and shot his foot. I think you'd get a kick out of it.

Thanks my friend..

Yes, I have seen the Police video. I even used it in my last couple of handgun courses. The Police officer is a Drug Enforcement Officer and giving an anti-drug class. He makes several bad mistakes and paid for it by shooting himself in the foot or leg. First if you listen close he says his Glock .40 S&W is not loaded. Then he hands it to a security officer to confirm it was empty. You ALWAYS consider any weapon loaded and NEVER take someone elses word that it is not loaded. You should check it yourself and look in the chamber to make sure there is not a round in the chamber. When you let the slide go forward make sure the weapon does not have a loaded magazine in it. The next mistake this guy made was he put his finger on the trigger. NEVER put your finger on the trigger unless you are ready to fire the weapon. Lastly NEVER point a weapon at anything or anyone that you dont want to destroy or kill.

My 2 kids grew up around guns, I'm sorry to say. My boy is now called "Gunny" and the girl is call "Captain".

Just don't know where I went WRONG.

Yoda 27

quote:

Originally posted by Bones:
My 2 kids grew up around guns, I'm sorry to say. My boy is now called "Gunny" and the girl is call "Captain".

Just don't know where I went WRONG.

Yoda 27

Bones I have only one word for you my friend:

OUTFU**INGSTANDING!!!!!!!

I know you are very proud of your kids. I know I would be very proud.

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:
Thanks Foster, these guys aren't being too rough, and I've valued their opinions. I'm not a rude/obnoxious guy, so I'd be tactful about asking friends/relatives to lock up their guns if I was bringing my kids with me. Most all of my friends/family members with guns already keep them locked away. Some of them keep a gun by their bed for protection such as my wifes father. We ask him if he'd lock the gun up when we visit, and he's always more than happy to. We don't demand he does it, but if we asked and he refused, we would think twice of bringing our kids into the house. Regardless, I'm a vigilant father and don't allow my kids to wander in others houses, even if it is their papa's house.

Kdhoffma,

I too value your opinion my friend and I have never found you rude or obnoxious. I may not agree with some of your opinions, however I have never found anyone that I always agreed with on every subject. I do tend to get fired up about my views but as long as its a debate about a subject and not a personal attack I never take it personally.

I have a loaded weapon in every room of my house, but I live alone and have no children. If I have company over who bring their children I lock up all my weapons in my safe since the last thing in the world ZI would want is for a kid to shoot himself or someone else with one of my weapons.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven35031,

Ok, here we go. I feel you are being a bit unfair here FirtRecon. Here is why...

quote:

Originally posted by FirstReconUSMC:
Flashman,

You continure to play the "race card" as an excuse for Blacks, and other ethnic groups, when the point isn't the race card, the point is statistics.

It is both. I was merely reacting to Mike's posts and statistics who, themselves reffered to race. In fact, they echoed another discussion with Mike a few weeks ago : "Best Political AD" which drifted into the race question. I didn't take it there...

quote:

Have you ever been to ANY part of Africa? If you believe the blacks are violent here, for whatever reason you choose to believe, you are sorely mistaken. Blacks in Africa, to this day, are viloent against each other and enslave, to this day, their own people.

Until you have taken a trip to and live in both Congo's, Nigeria, Benin, Togo, Cote d'Ivoire, Rwanda, et. al., then you don't know what you are saying (with your own eyes, the one's that count) except for what you read and feel in your heart. I'm not trying to belittle what you believe, though I'm sure it does sound as if I am. I'm only telling you that you are naive.

I am only naïve for those who would like me to be. And I will be in Kenya and Tanzania in about six weeks. We shall see. But this is off-subject.
You know - I hope - that I respect your point of view and that I am not totally blind, nevertheless, we were talking about the situation on our continent and, as you may realise, Black Noth-Americans generally haven't lived in Africa for quite a while so I would gather the comparison is impossible to make.

quote:

Take a trip to a non-tourist area (in "the bush" as it is known), in any county in the world, and you will maybe, but just maybe, begin to re-think your utopian hopefulness.

I know you truly believe it and want to believe it with all your heart. It ain't so. I'm not preaching from the pulpit, I'm preaching from experience. Experience is not what I read in news papers or hear Jane Fonda or Babara Streisand discuss on a talk shows. It is where I've been, what I've seen and what I've been through. The truth is where you find it not where you read the usually biased news or learn from a generally liberal academian. Reporters have to make a living so sometimes they tell you what you want to hear..!

Utopian, dreamer, unrealist, idealist... Thanks for the compliments. But, as Lennon would have said, I am not the only one. In fact, curiously, there are many great men who have known wars and hardships who still believe in this utopia, this dream, this belief in the inherent potential of human nature.
Might I suggest, respectfully, that the fact that you are (were) in the US Military biased (a) how people perceived and reacted to you in foreign countries (b) how you perceived them.

quote:

Additionally, I have not heard you criticize Canada, not vehemently, but you berate only the USA. It's easy to criticize the USA. Because we tolerate criticisim.

I have no problems in criticising Canada. Give me a thraed where I can, and I will. But there are a lot of Americans here so a lot of subjects are about the US. In this one, I was more trying to find a sort of "unifying theory" rather than critisize. In fact, of late, I am especially careful to be respectful and I don't say to myself : "Hey ! They tolerate criticism, so let's bash 'em !" I simply try to express my opinions as best I can without nationality having much to do with it.

quote:

Try doing that in most other countries and you will find yourself dead or in a prison so far in the sticks that only a king's ransome from your family would secure your release. And, Canada, and quite a bit of the world sits under US treaties of protection. So we foot the bill for most of the world's defense and get $hit on for our troubles.

Yes, I am happy to live in the free world and to be free to express myself and it is true that the US is instrumental in preserving those freedoms. But I don't think the idea behind this is to be altruistic and loving, it has to do with big profit, exploiting natural ressources and so on. The US profits from it and there is plenty left once the bill is footed (hence, I suppose, the $htting on). Now you are being naïve.

quote:

I say, to hell with the rest of the world as no one like the US anyway. What I am most sad to say is that some of my own countrymen don't like the US either..

You seem to confuse the US itself and US Foreign Policiy.

quote:

Take all I have said with a grain of salt because it does not matter one iota what FirstRecon thinks. Just be glad you live where you can speak as freely and, sometimes carelessly as you do (dichotomies in terms can come back to bite you from a post in the past)..

I know I am sometimes full of... contradictions, dichotomies and coexisting opposite forces. That is the way I am, a bit complicated. Also, my opinions can sometimes evolve, modify or change. Only fools don't change their minds.

quote:

I will pick on your country and province only one sentence or two. Clean up your own back yard, your big-city crime and the dislike of your government's immigration policies, first. Then pick on the US.

Quebec, Canada and San Francisco have a lot in common. They bite the hand that feeds them. ..

Ah ! There ! Now you have a thread subject where we can bash Canada and, in the midst of the discussion, I'll be able to say : "Clean your act before you critisize mine !" That'll be fun. Very productive...

quote:

Politically correct I am not. Honest, traveled and erudite to the (up front, close and personal) evil men/regimes in the world, I am.

I already know the diatribe I will receive for this post, and almost to a person's handle can tell you from whom. I don't give a $hit!

First paragraph is the reason I respect and value your opinion. It may still be the reason for my dove's beak to become a bit crooked (as I strive to make your hawk's plumage a bit whiter).

Second paragraph... Hum... I know you give a $ht !

To all on this forum. Those I agree with and those that I do not:

My fingers are very tired of typing and I am bidding all of you a fond adieu (not fondu) in the "Cigar Lounge". My mental baggage is not up to sparring anymore.

I think the anger in my posts proves that I can no longer, politely defend my points and beliefs without insulting someone, or something, or some race.

Arguing with those who do not see it my way (which I should not expect) is a bit like arguing with a woman; she can really piss you off for not understanding it your way, but even an angry man should be enough of a man to not just reach out and slap the $hit our of her.

It appears I am at that point with quite a few of you on this forum. So, instead of spitting out my non-politically correct opinions and slapping you in the face, I will do what I have done for over 40-years.

I will put my angry fist in my pocket, agree that some of you and myself will never agree, and go back to the mental boonies where I belong. Yes, I am a misfit and cannot deal in person or in dialog with modern society. Thank you for reminding me.

I wish all of you the best; the good, the bad and the ugly. I only pray that you continue to hold on to your mental innocence and never lose it.

For you old "war horses" who did defend your respective countries, even when you did not believe in the war, thanks for your support on this forum. And, for not innundating me with statistics, articles by yet another academian, or off-the-wall pendantics. It is the man who believes enough to physically fight for what he believes in, his country, who has my respect.

Raven: You have been a blessing and thanks for the invitation to another land of thought. To you and all of the men on this forum whose past action speaks louder than ALL of the touch-feely crap (my definition), Welcome Home Brothers!

1st Recon,

Time to "suck-it-up" and go fishing.

I think I heard a bass, just now, call your name. Am I right?

1st Recon,
Thank you for your contribution to our country, this forum, this thread. If we all agreed, then this would be a VERY boring place to "chat".