I'm with you...but beware incrementalism.

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:
I have observed that the people who hate and fear guns fall in one of two catagories or both:

1. People that have never been around guns and have no knowlegde about them. These people fear weapons and since they have no knowledge about them tend to believe weapons are a bad thing and should be banned.

2. People that grow up and live in places where guns are banned and live under a government that has convenced the population that guns are the root of all violent crime.

Remember this guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Mike, your observations may be true where you live -- because of "gun culture" in Alabama -- but it simply does not apply to many other places where said gun culture is different.

As an example of how this affects not only mentality but gun crimes in general are the statistics that follow :

Gun deaths comparison by country per 100,000 population (for the year indicated):

USA :
Homicide : 4.08 (1999) Suicide : 6.08 (1999) Unintentional : 0.42 (1999)

Canada :
Homicide : 0.54 (1999) Suicide : 2.65 (1997) (1999) Unintentional : 0.15 (1997)

Switzerland :
Homicide : 0.50 (1999) Suicide : 5.78 (1998) (1999) Unintentional : 0

England/Wales :
Homicide : 0.12 (1999/00) Suicide : 0.22 (1999) Unintentional : 0.01 (1999)

Japan :
Homicide : 0.04 (1998) Suicide : 0.04 (1995) Unintentional : <0.01 (1997)

More or less similar differences can be observed for other violent crimes.

One conclusion to be made from these numbers is that -- given the crime rate in the USA -- you are justified to wan't to protect yourself. And must admit that you seem to take all the necessary precautions to limit accidents.

Another conclusion would be that guns are much less necessary here for that purpose.

One of the problems in compairing overall US homicide rates with other countries is that it does not take into account the cities/states with the highest homicide rates have the strictist gun control laws also culture playes into this. Not all homicides are committed with guns.

Suicide rate can't be relative with guns either for the same reasons as what I stated above about homicide rates. If a person is deturmined to commit suicide it matters not if a gun is available.

NEWS RELEASE
CCRKBA SAYS D.C. ‘CRIME EMERGENCY’ IS RESULT OF 30 YEARS OF GUN CONTROL.

BELLEVUE, WA – Tourists robbed at gunpoint on the National Mall, a political activist murdered in Georgetown, robberies up 14 percent and armed assaults up 18 percent; these are the fruits of three decades of restrictive gun control in Washington, D.C., the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) said today.

“For 30 years,” said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb, “we have witnessed the cruel hoax of restrictive gun laws in our nation’s capitol. The insanity of gun control is revealed in the murder, rape, assault and robbery statistics that make the District of Columbia the crime capital of America. This is what happens when law-abiding citizens are told their Second Amendment rights have been suspended through elitist government fiat, and that they cannot possess the tools to defend themselves against criminal predators.”

“The city council, through three decades of social ignorance, has turned over the streets of our capitol city to outlaws, and the outlaws know it,” added CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron. “When the ban on handguns and restrictions on rifles and shotguns was adopted in 1976, the city administration should have hung signs at the city limits welcoming thugs and telling law-abiding citizens that their right to self-defense does not exist within these borders.

“What’s happening in Washington, D.C. today is an outrage,” Waldron added, “yet the people in charge refuse to admit their gun restrictions are responsible. They continue to perpetuate a myth that gun control makes the city safer. This recent crime wave makes it plain that restrictive gun control has no benefits except for criminals, and that those who defend the existing restrictions are defending a lie.”

“We call upon the city government and Congress to immediately repeal the District’s Draconian gun regulations,” Gottlieb concluded. “The city’s law-abiding citizens must be allowed to fight back, and regain control of their neighborhoods. Any politician, whether in the municipal government or on Capitol Hill, who does not trust the citizens of Washington, D.C. with their Second Amendment rights does not deserve to hold office, and should hand in his or her resignation. This risk-free working environment for criminals must end now.”

-END-

NEWS RELEASE


GOV. BUSH GETS IT RIGHT, SAYS CCRKBA; ARMED CITIZENS REDUCE CRIME.


BELLEVUE, WA – Florida Gov. Jeb Bush “nailed it” when he told reporters in Tallahassee – in reaction to the state’s drop in crime – that armed citizens are part of the equation, the Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) said today.

Gov. Bush was quoted in the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel noting, “Law abiding citizens that have guns for protection actually probably are part of the reason we have a lower crime rate.”

Florida is one of 40 states with “right-to-carry” statutes that give citizens the ability to carry concealed handguns with the proper license. Last year, Florida also passed legislation that enables citizens to “stand their ground” and fight back when attacked in a public place where they have a right to be.

“Gov. Bush has once again demonstrated progressive thinking, and a clear understanding about what works to stop criminals in their tracks,” said CCRKBA Chairman Alan Gottlieb. “Legally-armed citizens are a threat to nobody but criminals, and Florida’s crime statistics prove that the presence of firearms in the hands of law-abiding citizens benefits the entire community. In explaining why crime rates have dropped, we think Gov. Bush nailed it.”

“Isn’t it ironic,” added CCRKBA Executive Director Joe Waldron, “that while Florida, with an armed citizenry, is enjoying a drop in crime, Washington, D.C., where citizens are legally disarmed, is experiencing a crime epidemic? In the nation’s capitol, where the Second Amendment has been literally suspended by municipal government fiat, armed assaults are up 18 percent in the past month and robberies have jumped 14 percent. Yet law-abiding citizens cannot arm themselves for protection. It’s an outrage.”

“No matter where they live,” Gottlieb concluded, “American citizens have a right to defend themselves. Progressive states like Florida with sensible concealed carry and self-defense laws will lead this nation out of the Dark Ages of insane gun control and broken justice systems. This new data shows that the gun control and criminal rights extremists have been wrong, something we’ve known all along.”
-END-

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:

One of the problems in compairing overall US homicide rates with other countries is that it does not take into account the cities/states with the highest homicide rates have the strictist gun control laws also culture playes into this. Not all homicides are committed with guns.

Suicide rate can't be relative with guns either for the same reasons as what I stated above about homicide rates. If a person is deturmined to commit suicide it matters not if a gun is available.

First, flashman's statistics are clearly labeled as gun deaths.

Secondly, do you have any sources/statistics to show that the cities and states with stricter gun laws have higher homicide rates?

Thirdly, if you do have stats, do they show that the stricter gun laws were enacted prior to or after homicide rates reached high levels?

Finally, flashman has repeatedly posted that he feels that gun stats/laws are culture dependent.

FACTS TO PONDER:

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.


(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.


(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.


Now think about this:

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million..)

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups is 1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."


FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!! Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

Just kidding about the doctor warning. However these facts are true.......

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:

One of the problems in compairing overall US homicide rates with other countries is that it does not take into account the cities/states with the highest homicide rates have the strictist gun control laws also culture playes into this. Not all homicides are committed with guns.

Suicide rate can't be relative with guns either for the same reasons as what I stated above about homicide rates. If a person is deturmined to commit suicide it matters not if a gun is available.

First, flashman's statistics are clearly labeled as gun deaths.

Secondly, do you have any sources/statistics to show that the cities and states with stricter gun laws have higher homicide rates?

Thirdly, if you do have stats, do they show that the stricter gun laws were enacted prior to or after homicide rates reached high levels?

Finally, flashman has repeatedly posted that he feels that gun stats/laws are culture dependent.

The FBI puts out a uniform crime report every year. In this report it breaks down all fellony crimes by state, city, and race. The FBI has a web site you can go to and look at these crime states. It does not take a Masters degree in American Government to figure out which major cities have strict gun control laws and ones that alow citizens to own and carry concealed handguns with a permit. The NRA has a web site where I am certain you will find which states allow citizens to carry concealed handguns and those that dont.

My reply to flashmans post was not an attack on flashman but just to add to what he said. However I am sure he appreciates your defending his post.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:
FACTS TO PONDER:

(A) The number of physicians in the U.S. is 700,000.


(B) Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year are 120,000.


(C) Accidental deaths per physician is 0.171.

Statistics courtesy of U.S. Dept of Health Human Services.


Now think about this:

Guns:

(A) The number of gun owners in the U.S. is 80,000,000. (Yes, that's 80 million..)

(B) The number of accidental gun deaths per year, all age groups is 1,500.

(C) The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is .000188.

Statistics courtesy of FBI

So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners.

Remember, "Guns don't kill people, doctors do."


FACT: NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Please alert your friends to this alarming threat. We must ban doctors before this gets completely out of hand!!!!! Out of concern for the public at large, I have withheld the statistics on lawyers for fear the shock would cause people to panic and seek medical attention.

Just kidding about the doctor warning. However these facts are true.......

LMAO... it's a good joke! At least we can agree that lawyers are the root of all evil!

Those are interesting numbers. Unfortunately they are skewed and (like most statistics) can be interpretated in different ways. Doctors spend 40, 50, 60, 70 hours a week were a minor mental slip causes death. On the other hand the average gun owner may spend a few hours a week at a range where a minor mental slip cause them to miss the clay pigeon.

Now, if we were to turn the tables I would bet there is a higher rate of intentional deaths per gun owner than per doctor. Of course I'd probably rather be dead than fall prey to a good lawyer (oxymoron?)!

Good call Raven. It has also been seen over and over that when "Right to Carry" (RTC) permits are first issued in a jurisdiction, violent crime rates in that jurisdiction drop and there is a concurrent increase in violent crime in surrounding jurisdictions that do not have the same RTC laws.

Criminals aren't stupid...they would rather prey on someone who cannot fight back.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:

One of the problems in compairing overall US homicide rates with other countries is that it does not take into account the cities/states with the highest homicide rates have the strictist gun control laws also culture playes into this. Not all homicides are committed with guns.

Suicide rate can't be relative with guns either for the same reasons as what I stated above about homicide rates. If a person is deturmined to commit suicide it matters not if a gun is available.

First, flashman's statistics are clearly labeled as gun deaths.

Secondly, do you have any sources/statistics to show that the cities and states with stricter gun laws have higher homicide rates?

Thirdly, if you do have stats, do they show that the stricter gun laws were enacted prior to or after homicide rates reached high levels?

Finally, flashman has repeatedly posted that he feels that gun stats/laws are culture dependent.

The FBI puts out a uniform crime report every year. In this report it breaks down all fellony crimes by state, city, and race. The FBI has a web site you can go to and look at these crime states. It does not take a Masters degree in American Government to figure out which major cities have strict gun control laws and ones that alow citizens to own and carry concealed handguns with a permit. The NRA has a web site where I am certain you will find which states allow citizens to carry concealed handguns and those that dont.

My reply to flashmans post was not an attack on flashman but just to add to what he said. However I am sure he appreciates your defending his post.

My point was not to defend flashmans post, but to point out some erros you made in your additions to his post.

Your right, I could goto the NRA and get plenty of info/facts/stats, but don't you think they are going to be biased? I might as well goto the "mothers against guns" website (or some other site) for the same info, because they would be just as biased. If you know of a more neutral site, send me the link, I'd love to read more on the topic.

quote:

Originally posted by DR505:
Good call Raven. It has also been seen over and over that when "Right to Carry" (RTC) permits are first issued in a jurisdiction, violent crime rates in that jurisdiction drop and there is a concurrent increase in violent crime in surrounding jurisdictions that do not have the same RTC laws.

Criminals aren't stupid...they would rather prey on someone who cannot fight back.

I don't really have any stats on the drop of violent crimes in areas with concealed weapons permits. But I do remember in 2000 in michigan the restrictions/laws concerning concealed weapons permits were loosened considerably, it was major news. Anyhow, the number of Michigan residents with permits doubled in the first year. So I was just checking out the state of michigan concealed weapons report at: http://www.michigan.gov/msp/0,1607,7-123-1591_3503_4654-77621--,00.html
and the number or people with concealed weapons permits who commited any crime was much lower than I expected. I guess it makes sense, criminals aren't going to put extra money (or create a paper trail) because if they end up using the gun they will probably have to get rid of it.

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:
Your right, I could goto the NRA and get plenty of info/facts/stats, but don't you think they are going to be biased? I might as well goto the "mothers against guns" website (or some other site) for the same info, because they would be just as biased. If you know of a more neutral site, send me the link, I'd love to read more on the topic.

How biased can a list of states that alow citizens to get a permit to carry concealed handguns vs those states that don't?

I wonder what the stats would show if you showed gun related homicide rates after you removed the numbers of people that committed murder with a firearm who could not legally own a firearm for exaple:

People under the age of 21 since it is a federal offence to own or possess a handgun.

People with a prior fellony conviction since it is a federal offence for them to own or possess a firearm.

People who are in violation of state and or local gun laws that would make it illegal for them to carry or possess a firearm.

People who are in possession of illegal drugs and possess a firearm.



We already have federal, state, and local laws that makes it illegal for certain people and people in certain areas to own or possess a firearm. Criminals have weapons bottom line and dont care what laws they are violating to possess these weapons. Gun control laws only applies to those citizens that do not violate the law making them easer targets for those that choose to victimize others. So would we not be better served by focussing on enforcing current laws and taking these thugs off the street and giving them longer prison terms instead of making more difficult for those that obay the law to defend ourselves>

Just an observation ... a lot of Americans are absolutely crazy in love (obsessed) with their guns and also their SUVs.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:
Your right, I could goto the NRA and get plenty of info/facts/stats, but don't you think they are going to be biased? I might as well goto the "mothers against guns" website (or some other site) for the same info, because they would be just as biased. If you know of a more neutral site, send me the link, I'd love to read more on the topic.

How biased can a list of states that alow citizens to get a permit to carry concealed handguns vs those states that don't?

You're right, I didn't read your post carefully. I thought you were telling me to research the FBI numbers through the NRA website. My bad.

quote:

Originally posted by kdhoffma:
You're right, I didn't read your post carefully. I thought you were telling me to research the FBI numbers through the NRA website. My bad.

LOL, no problem my friend. I have done the same many times.

quote:

Originally posted by Raven35031:
I wonder what the stats would show if you showed gun related homicide rates after you removed the numbers of people that committed murder with a firearm who could not legally own a firearm for exaple:

People under the age of 21 since it is a federal offence to own or possess a handgun.

People with a prior fellony conviction since it is a federal offence for them to own or possess a firearm.

People who are in violation of state and or local gun laws that would make it illegal for them to carry or possess a firearm.

People who are in possession of illegal drugs and possess a firearm.



We already have federal, state, and local laws that makes it illegal for certain people and people in certain areas to own or possess a firearm. Criminals have weapons bottom line and dont care what laws they are violating to possess these weapons. Gun control laws only applies to those citizens that do not violate the law making them easer targets for those that choose to victimize others. So would we not be better served by focussing on enforcing current laws and taking these thugs off the street and giving them longer prison terms instead of making more difficult for those that obay the law to defend ourselves>

I'll tell you, the thing that bothers me is the fighting going on between pro-gun and anti-gun groups. In reality, both groups want the same thing: to feel safe and protected. There has to be some way for these groups to work together. I agree with raven in that the focus should be on the violent criminals. The pro-guns can focus on gun safety courses, while the anti-guns focus on keeping guns out of criminals hands (while not limiting the law abiding citizens right to bear arms.) Just my 2 cents.

quote:

Originally posted by cigarmanron:
Just an observation ... a lot of Americans are absolutely crazy in love (obsessed) with their guns and also their SUVs.

Lots of gays in San Fran. Just an opservation!<