It seems that when I open the door for a lady they look so surprised when I do that. I open the door for my wife and close it behind her whenever we get into a car. Has the art and seduction of chivilary died?

Do you hold doors open or anything that would still be considered chivilarous?

Yeah but does she like getting pushed out of a car going 60?

Up here everyone is polite. We are so polite that even if you don't thank someone for holding a door open; they will still say "you're welcome".

Chivilary is not dead just not practiced much anymore. I think it is what separates us from the rest of the rabble.
I think it is funny that women stll love it. It is so sexist. But, then again, they are women

This past winter, I was heading to Smith & Wollensky's in New York. It was a frigid, snowy night. These two older Italian lovelies were huddled outside searching their coats for matches. I lit their cigarettes for them because I always make it a point to do so.

What saddened me was that these nice women were so surprised A) to find someone with manners, and B) that an American carried a lighter.

Sad times.

Chivalry is a false system. In other words, it's a phony ploy that was developed in a time where men sought to literally take possession of women. My relationship with my wife is based on honesty and mutual respect/consideration and not on a dynamic under which she is my property. If I open the door for her, it is because I love her, not because I am following some ancient code of courtship or trying to impress her with corny old-school manners. Women see through all that crap.

So I hope it IS dead. Helping people is legitimate only when it comes from true intentions.

Keep in mind that my response is based on the classical meaning of the term "chivalry." From what I have read, some of you have a confused idea of what the term means.

quote:

Originally posted by Coriolanus: honesty and mutual respect/consideration

There it is. The eternal dialectic.

Then I guess I'm not sure what chivalry is. I was using it as a synonym for good manners towards a woman - pulling out her chair, holding the door, lighting her cigarette, etc. Moreover, there is also the aspect of defending a woman. Should a mugger be confronted, the man has an obligation to protect the woman, any woman, to whatever extent necessary.

Curious to see what the other oppressive definition would be.

Thanks Cor for playing devil's advocate.

You'll notice I mentioned that chivilary is a "seduction" as well. I know that it's history is tied into male dominance. However, does it still mean that?

I know what you mean about false bravado or buiilding face through false presentation. Here's the thing Cor (and everyone) what if the person is doing it not for false bravado but for genuine expression of care?

I am not going to lie. I like opening doors and things of that nature because I pride myself on trying to be a gentleman. (which raises again the motivation intrinsic vs extrinsic.)

Seduction - Let's face it there is the element of seduction with chivilary. Its part of the game, but does that mean it is a facade?

quote:

Seduction - Let's face it there is the element of seduction with chivilary. Its part of the game, but does that mean it is a facade?

I would say that part of it is.

Having good manners and being polite has more to do with being a "gentleman" than being chivalrous. Chivalry has more to do with wooing a woman through acts of bravery and seduction. Pick up a copy of Sir Thomas Malory's La Morte D'Arthur and you'll get the picture.

I think of what you're talking about as being a gentleman in the British sense, deriving from 19th c. Victorian codes of conduct. Again, a lot of it was based on the idea that a woman is a man's property, so a lot of the issue boils down to one's intentions.

Speaking of men seducing women and vice versa, I hate the system. The divorce rate is at 50% in this country because people are phonies when they are dating/courting/cohabiting and then the "real" behavior comes out afterwards. I say, be real from the beginning, whatever that may mean for you. If it's love, all the manners (or lack thereof) won't matter a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by CigarLife:
It seems that when I open the door for a lady they look so surprised when I do that. I open the door for my wife and close it behind her whenever we get into a car. Has the art and seduction of chivilary died?

Do you hold doors open or anything that would still be considered chivilarous?

I occasionally will sleep on the wet spot myself...

It funny that you mention about phony behaviors in courtship. I agree there are phony behaviors in courtship. However I think divorce comes from, not a lack of people genuine, rather from people trying to change the genuine.

In other words, people show their true colors prior to marriage, but some people have this thing about changing people. "Yeah, he is a grerat guy now if I can just get him to..." or "Yeah she's a great person, now if I can just get her to..." I think divorce happens partially because of a lack of acceptance of the fallability of the other (while we gloss over own). In other words, many people live in illusion. Hmm. Maybe we are saying the same thing Cor, but for different reasons. Equafinality after all.

CL, definitely a problem. The earlier people accept that their potential mates are not "changeable," the better. The other big problem is when people marry in order to "save" the other from a bad situation. Recipe for a disaster.

The problem with behaving in a chivarlous manner is that the female in question will take you kindness for weakness and begin to "test you." Chicks are kinda like kids and dogs, meaning that they'll do things in order to see what they can get away with.

Though I treat everybody with courtesy and respect, I'm VERY QUICK to tell a broad when she's out of line. To quote the film classic "American Pimp," in regards to women taking advantage of you, "Ain't nair a n---- got a heart like Hilter, but these hoes will take advantage of you, so you have to "pimp," accordingly." I agree wholeheartedly.

People will of course try to test limits. All people try to test limits. That is when, IMHO, true chivalry comes into play.

Great example:

During undergrad I opened the door for a lady and she stopped and started yelling at me. "Do you really think I can't open my own f----in' door?!" I was thrown off. "I'm just trying to be a gentleman." She said. "No. You're being an ass." She then walked away and entered the building through another door just a few feet away. It turns out this was reported back to a professor I had. This person had just taken a Femminist History class in the Psyc. dept. The prof knew me and she was relaying this story a few months later. I told her I was the "ass". She had a good laugh.

The real definition of feminism is "equality". Which I am for, however radical feminists call for female dominance, which I am against.

Yup! Women's Lib got it. Banged it with a .44 mag through the eye! It didn't have a chance.

quote:

Originally posted by CigarLife:
People will of course try to test limits. All people try to test limits. That is when, IMHO, true chivalry comes into play.

Great example:

During undergrad I opened the door for a lady and she stopped and started yelling at me. "Do you really think I can't open my own f----in' door?!" I was thrown off. "I'm just trying to be a gentleman." She said. "No. You're being an ass." She then walked away and entered the building through another door just a few feet away. It turns out this was reported back to a professor I had. This person had just taken a Femminist History class in the Psyc. dept. The prof knew me and she was relaying this story a few months later. I told her I was the "ass". She had a good laugh.

The real definition of feminism is "equality". Which I am for, however radical feminists call for female dominance, which I am against.

I don't usually open doors for people I don't know, epecially because I spend most of my time on a university campus. If someone opens a door for me, I reciprocate if there is another door after that.

Again, I don't think it's "feminism" or "PC" -- I think people get upset about what they consider to be phony behavior. It can also seem demeaning.

I personally don't give a ****. I don't necessarily want to open doors for other people anyway.

Ha!

Yeah. Sometimes P.C. communication interferes with truth.
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I personally don't give a ****. I don't necessarily want to open doors for other people anyway.
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Funny.

This brings up another point: Intention.

My intent was to be courteous, not demeaning. So how can we really determine was the other person intention is regarding chivalry?

No way to know intention unless a person tells you. If you're a Freudian, even that does not solve the riddle, lol. I think my approach is superior: tell people to open the door themselves.

Cor -

perhaps I'm being impudent, but your last few postings read as if your superior reasoning has innoculated you from the simple courtesy of opening a door...

quote:

Is chivilary dead?

No, just wounded and limping horribly into the sunset.