Originally posted by KKL: It's interesting that the last time this was voted on by the citizens of California, 61% felt that "only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California".
If you were to ask the typical joe on the street he would say that police should be allowed to beat suspects to confession, that police should be allowed to search people with no cause and that there are space aliens and heaven''s angels walking the streets.
The typical joe on the street is gullible when skepticism would be better and he is skeptical when confronted with facts that he does not understand.
QM Quality does not occur by chance. It is the result of intelligent activities.
Posts: 7612 | Location: Cigar land | Registered: March 10, 2003
Originally posted by SHEEPSHEAD BAY: The problem i have with it is they always seem to want to adopt children. And sadly are allowed to do so. In a society where we have all but done away with corporal punishment. We allow different forms of crueler punishment IMHO. Children should be raised in a loving home with a Mother and Father PERIOD!
That's just ignorant, my friend. Punishment? Come on. I am friends with several gay and lesbian couples who either adopted kids or used a sperm bank to have them naturally. All kids are doing just fine. And incidentally, they have plenty of straight male and straight female influences around them - grandparents, cousins, uncles, aunts, friends. (One lesbian couple, with a kid of their own, are "godparents" to our oldest daughter. They've been together 14 years and have a far more stable home environment than anyone I know.)
Good point. The sexual orientation of one's parents does not determine the stability of the home environment, nor does it determine "how the kids will turn out." And yes, children of same sex parents will likely take some insults on the playground, at least until it becomes a more accepted family structure and ceases to be perceived as strange. But, perhaps the hazing will make them stronger in the long run.
Bottom line: by denying good parents the right to have children simply because they are of the same sex is unconstitutional and just plain wrong. They deserve the same rights as hetero parents. To do so is to treat them as less than human.
------------------- Ignore MD#1 and MD#2.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." -John Stuart Mill
Posts: 1803 | Location: the GTA | Registered: November 28, 2007
I'm wondering what next human behavior that was once thought to be deviant will be "mainstreamed".
I'm putting my money on NAMBLA (Man/Boy love wackos). Here's how it will go down:
-First: they will play the role of victim
-Second: they will argue that social norms have changed and what was once unacceptable is so in todays world
-Third: Argue that a 14 year boy today is MUCH more mature than they were back in the dark ages. We must all understand they are old enough to make their own decisions for their body.
-Fourth: Get their own network sitcom, where a kooky (yet lovable neighbor) is a member of NAMBLA.
Last: Get a liberal state to sign-off on it.
Voila! It is mainstream!
PS For the record, I could care less what consenting adults do in their private lives.
I do believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. It has been a world tradition since the begining.
"Lord, please let me be the person my dog thinks I am"
Posts: 368 | Location: Atlanta metro | Registered: June 17, 2006
Scary thought but if people don't start to draw some lines. When everything becomes a gray area look out. I never thought i would say this but to much freedom can be a bad thing.
"Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God" -Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of freedom must be nurtured from time to time with the blood of its patriots" -Thomas Jefferson
"When the Government Fears the People, There is Liberty; When the People Fear the Government, There is Tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 4139 | Location: Reggio di Calabria, Italy / New York United States | Registered: July 12, 2007
I never thought i would say this but to much freedom can be a bad thing.
What would be your remedy for "too much freedom", if you had sole power?
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 3255 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
What would be your remedy for "too much freedom", if you had sole power?
I think freedom is a must. I don't think there is as you call it a remedy. If people just took the middle ground there really wouldn't be an issue now would there?
"Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God" -Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of freedom must be nurtured from time to time with the blood of its patriots" -Thomas Jefferson
"When the Government Fears the People, There is Liberty; When the People Fear the Government, There is Tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 4139 | Location: Reggio di Calabria, Italy / New York United States | Registered: July 12, 2007
Sheep, I still find it difficult to understand why your preferences should be imposed on everyone else, nor why they are inherently superior to those of anyone else.
------------------- Ignore MD#1 and MD#2.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." -John Stuart Mill
Posts: 1803 | Location: the GTA | Registered: November 28, 2007
I think freedom is a must. I don't think there is as you call it a remedy. If people just took the middle ground there really wouldn't be an issue now would there?
No argument. But "too much freedom" was your phrase, and I just wasn't sure if your post meant you favored restricting it by law, or if you were just expressing a personal opinion.
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 3255 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
No argument. But "too much freedom" was your phrase, and I just wasn't sure if your post meant you favored restricting it by law, or if you were just expressing a personal opinion.
The inference was to Sea Breezes Fictional act to what might happen if people manipulated the laws in the name of personal freedoms.
"Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God" -Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of freedom must be nurtured from time to time with the blood of its patriots" -Thomas Jefferson
"When the Government Fears the People, There is Liberty; When the People Fear the Government, There is Tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 4139 | Location: Reggio di Calabria, Italy / New York United States | Registered: July 12, 2007
There's no "gray" involved here. Do two consenting adults who ostensibly love each other and want to spend their lives together have a right to marry, regardless of their respective genders? Yes. Absolutely, yes. It's as clear as the right of heteros to get married.
Do men have the right to have sex with children? Absolutely, unreservedly, no.
How can anyone conflate these issues? Where we draw the line is crystal clear.
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Posts: 1483 | Location: New York/Denver | Registered: August 05, 2005
There's no "gray" involved here. Do two consenting adults who ostensibly love each other and want to spend their lives together have a right to marry, regardless of their respective genders? Yes. Absolutely, yes. It's as clear as the right of heteros to get married.
The issue was never consenting adults to live as they choose,But rather their right to raise children. I will re post my answer to their right to raise children IMHO as you have so consequently chosen to skip over that post and choose to debate something that was never reputed.
It is ignorant on your part to believe that children can get the same things from two same sex parents as they do from a Mother and father. Each plays a critical role in a child's development. Masculine traits come from the Father being responsible discipline bonding like Hunting,Fishing Sports etc learning to be a man so to speak. While kindness caring compassion love empathy come from both parents it is usually the female gender that adheres these to a child making them whole. Not to mention the ridicule children face when going to school if classmates find out about there same sex parents. Needless to say children learn from example pre disposing them to homosexual tendencies this is divert behavior and if you can't see that you my friend are blind. If this is not abusive quite frankly i do not know what is. If one choses to engage in this abnormal behavior when mature then that is there privilege. But to instill it in a young child is unforgivable and criminal IMHO.
"Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God" -Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of freedom must be nurtured from time to time with the blood of its patriots" -Thomas Jefferson
"When the Government Fears the People, There is Liberty; When the People Fear the Government, There is Tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 4139 | Location: Reggio di Calabria, Italy / New York United States | Registered: July 12, 2007
Couldnt have said it better Sheep I wish you were a judge in Ca I dont usually get involved in politics but most of us here in Central Ca agree with you. There is no real reason to try to lump this type of relationship into the same thing as a traditional hetrosexual marriage except to further cloud reality for our already confused and challenged youth. As a father of 3 very good and well adjusted children that are tollerent of people that are different. They still recognise that they are different. Mainstream Hollywood with all of there liberal friends are trying hard to smear the line further, and we need to fight as hard as we can to protect our core values that makes this country great. If it takes a constitutional amendment to define something so obvious to many of us, we have a real problem in this country.
quote:
Originally posted by SHEEPSHEAD BAY:
quote:
There's no "gray" involved here. Do two consenting adults who ostensibly love each other and want to spend their lives together have a right to marry, regardless of their respective genders? Yes. Absolutely, yes. It's as clear as the right of heteros to get married.
The issue was never consenting adults to live as they choose,But rather their right to raise children. I will re post my answer to their right to raise children IMHO as you have so consequently chosen to skip over that post and choose to debate something that was never reputed.
It is ignorant on your part to believe that children can get the same things from two same sex parents as they do from a Mother and father. Each plays a critical role in a child's development. Masculine traits come from the Father being responsible discipline bonding like Hunting,Fishing Sports etc learning to be a man so to speak. While kindness caring compassion love empathy come from both parents it is usually the female gender that adheres these to a child making them whole. Not to mention the ridicule children face when going to school if classmates find out about there same sex parents. Needless to say children learn from example pre disposing them to homosexual tendencies this is divert behavior and if you can't see that you my friend are blind. If this is not abusive quite frankly i do not know what is. If one choses to engage in this abnormal behavior when mature then that is there privilege. But to instill it in a young child is unforgivable and criminal IMHO.
Posts: 745 | Location: The Middle of California | Registered: November 07, 2007
Originally posted by justawalker55: Mainstream Hollywood with all of there liberal friends are trying hard to smear the line further, and we need to fight as hard as we can to protect our core values that makes this country great.
I suppose, in your opinion, those values don't include civil rights and freedoms or tolerance of different lifestyles.
Whether or not you think you think you are doing children a service by preventing them from having same sex parents, it is not your choice to decide. Homosexual parents, as human beings and citizens, have every right to raise children, just as Hetero parents do.
Sheep: Those traditional gender roles you mention have been growing less and less relevant since the 40's. With most families being two service-based income families, both parents have been "covering" the traditional roles in many households, and this trend has been growing. Further, among homosexual couples, one tends to be more masculine while the other more feminine. The biological sex of a parent has little determination in which role he or she fills, whether the couple is heterosexual or homosexual.
It is very bold of you (and justawalker) to think that children would, as a whole, be better off if all parents adhered to a traditional model hetero household. It is even bolder to think that the laws should be written so as to enforce it. Laws should be protecting human rights, not removing them. Laws barring homosexual marriage are unconstitutional, at best.
------------------- Ignore MD#1 and MD#2.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." -John Stuart Mill
Posts: 1803 | Location: the GTA | Registered: November 28, 2007
Originally posted by SHEEPSHEAD BAY: It is ignorant on your part to believe that children can get the same things from two same sex parents as they do from a Mother and father.
And it is ignorant on your part to believe that they can't. It is even more ignorant to believe that the law should force everyone into adhering to your belief.
quote:
If one choses to engage in this abnormal behavior when mature then that is there privilege. But to instill it in a young child is unforgivable and criminal IMHO.
Who said anything about instilling it in a young child? Is it not possible for homosexual parents to explain to their children that this was their choice, and that everyone, including themselves, is free to make their own choice? Personally, I believe being homosexual is not a choice, but something that is biologically/genetically determined. To think that homosexual parents are going to turn their kids gay is beyond ignorant... it's just plain stupid.
If you think a homosexual parent will not be able communicate with and raise their children to grow into adept adults, perhaps it is you who has fallen short. Perhaps you aren't a very good parent, and your children only learn by imitating what you do rather than by education. Maybe you need to work on your communication and parenting skills, rather than force everyone else into a box in order to compensate for your personal shortcomings.
------------------- Ignore MD#1 and MD#2.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." -John Stuart Mill
Posts: 1803 | Location: the GTA | Registered: November 28, 2007
Sheep, for the record, I was countering your bit about gray areas. I didn't mention what you said about raising kids because what facts, what evidence, could I possibly give you to persuade you otherwise? What am I supposed to do, take you to my friends' house for dinner and show you how great their kids are? No, you've said yourself that their raising kids is abusive and criminal. You've given us your answer and we're all clear where Sheepie stands.
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"Live every week like it's Shark Week."
Posts: 1483 | Location: New York/Denver | Registered: August 05, 2005
Anyway, I'm curious to hear from those opposed to gay marriage as to why you care whether two dudes or two women marry each other?
The problem i have with it is they always seem to want to adopt children. And sadly are allowed to do so. In a society where we have all but done away with corporal punishment. We allow different forms of crueler punishment IMHO. Children should be raised in a loving home with a Mother and Father PERIOD!
100% agreed!!!
No matter where you go or what you want to do....there will always be something or someone in the way.
Posts: 845 | Location: Richmond, IN | Registered: February 07, 2008
I love idealist extremists. They're so fun to watch when they get angry.
Since you so strongly believe that children SHOULD be raised by a mother AND a father (presumably under the assumption that a same-sex couple cannot possibly fit that definition), what about single-parent families? Since single-parent families are missing either a mother or a father, should children in such families be immediately relinquished to the care of an adoptive couple?
Please respond.
------------------- Ignore MD#1 and MD#2.
"Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives." -John Stuart Mill
Posts: 1803 | Location: the GTA | Registered: November 28, 2007
