Kind of makes you wonder what is getting more press in the Arab world.

1. A US Marine killing an insurgent in a combat zone

or

2. The execution of the CARE president

Azsar, I'll only comment on your first paragraph:

I never said the marine was guilty. If in the heat of combat someone got shot that could of possibly been un-armed, and after further review found harmless - fine.

I'm not arguing that. I think the marines should adapt to protect themselves from injury or death.

My issue is if the marine knew the man was harmless and still shot him in the head.

Under those circumstances he is guilty.

Sox

Poor Marine.
The video may not have shown all the detail, including the said booby trap. I hope all go well.

On the other side, just because the enemy was not playing by the rule doesn't mean we should break the rule. That's the reason why we are better. If we break the rule, then we are one step closer becoming our enemy. Solider fight to preserve our freedom and protect the constitution. It mean nothing if we have to break the rule to preseve the rule.

That being said, I still say, kill them all!

SOX how can you say "My issue is if the marine knew the man was harmless and still shot him in the head."


How the hell do you know what that marine was thinking? Sh*t happens, people die. They are fighting a "dirty" war where nothing is clear or certian.

Sox,

You said, "My issue is if the marine knew the man was harmless and still shot him in the head." Are you serious? How on earth will anyone, other than the marine himself, ever know that.

Verboy,

You said, "On the other side, just because the enemy was not playing by the rule doesn't mean we should break the rule. That's the reason why we are better. If we break the rule, then we are one step closer becoming our enemy. Solider fight to preserve our freedom and protect the constitution. It mean nothing if we have to break the rule to preseve the rule."

I would agree with that statement if our soldiers started playing dead, using civilians for shields and booby trapping bodies. In these cases we would be breaking the rules and would be lowering our standards to those of the enemy.

With that being said, our guys are adapting to the enemy (who are not following the rules) for their own safety. I hope you can see the difference between adjusting your perspective for your own safety and adopting "illegal" tactics for the sole purpose of killing someone. They break the rules to get an "unfair" advantage...should we ablige and tell our soldiers to sacrifice their lives so we can claim the high moral ground. We've already taken that hill and I'm tired of our soldiers refighting that battle for the blame America first crowd.

Verboy, I'm not quite to the kill them all point....yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by abogad:
For the sake of debate:

If a wounded US Marine who had been taken prisoner and was laying on the floor of a building (religious or non-religious whatever...its a building in a war zone) and was shot and killed by an Iraqi, what would y'all's response be?

probably a lot of noise about "ragheads"...

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It would have been murder and here are the critical differences.

1. Our marines do not booby trap their wounded or corpses, so the murderer couldn't use that as a claim for self defense.

2. Our marines are clearly identified as combatants by their uniforms and should be treated as an enemy combatant. The insurgents are terrorist and the rules of engagement do not apply to them. The military code of conduct, nevertheless, applies to all marines, in all situations and will be applied in this case. The insurgents have no such code.

3. This man was not a prisoners, he was a wounded enemy combatant. Between the time he was originally wounded and the time the second patrol came into the building, he was not under guard. If that had been the case, and he'd been shot as shown in the video, then it would be a clear case of murder.

The patrol walking into the building apparently discovered the man and reacted to the situation. In hindsight, it could have been handled differently. But in combat, you make a 100 decisions a minute and 95% of them determine whether you stay alive. To judge this marine, based on evidence determined after the fact (no weapon, no booby trap), scrutinizing his action on slow-mo video reply in the comfort and safety of your living room or a US court is asinine.

Ruger

well it seems only the non-arabs feel sorry for this dead insurgent. After all, he's proabably on his 15th of 72 virgins by now. anyway, to them there is no greater honor than becoming a martyr, so its a win-win situation. we got rid of one more extremist and he got to become a martyr. looks like the best negotiation since the begining of the war. everyone is happy.

SOX

Why don't you talk about rules of engagement to the family of that female aid worker who spent her life helping the people of Iraq onle to be taken hostage and later shot in the head by thes people you seem to want to defend.

I wonder SOX have you ever served in the Armed Forces. Or just one of these people that watch the news then do your part by second guessing the brave youg men and women that are fighting in Iraq.

I wonder what you would have done under the same circumstances. I bet you would feel different about it and less quick to judge that marine.

I support our guys over there. This is a war. He did what he thought was right under those circumstances.
No press should be allowed. They put our troops even in more danger. Next time when he will need to shoot, he might think twice, and that might cost him, or his buddy’s life. I say he did a right thing.
Why we even talking about that so much in this country? It sends the wrong message to our friends and enemies.

Rules of engagement:

Yes there are rules of engagement in war. You don't take civilians and POWs that are unarmed and line them up and shoot them.

In war there are rules that soldiers follow to survive and come home. Like killing the enemy before he kills you and when in dout you shoot. Just to name a few.

The Marine in question did not take a POW that was clearly disarmed and under our control and shoot him. He had seen situations where the enemy under these same circumstances was still a threat and had killed and wounded his follow Marines. This would fall under the kill the enemy before he kills you and when in dout you shoot.

It is better to have shot this wounded terrorist than to have taken a chance of getting killed or wounded. If this Terrorist that some people feel was unjustly shot did not want to die he should have never taken up arms against these Marines and Soldiers. This terrorist maust have a death wish anyway and we just helped him in his quest to meet Allah.

Thanks NBC!!!!

If you want war to make sense...drop a dose.


The Marines will deal with this soldier if necessary.

The only person who should be on trial is that scumbag reporter. There is no law saying you have to release all videotape. At some point you owe allegiance to the country that recognizes your freedom of the press, and especially to the people who protect that right. Way to go big shot reporter. Douchebag.

Mike

I'm surprised by the concern shown by Sox for the rules of engagement.

If I remember correctly,

1 - You cannot use schools, holy places, and hospitals as bases of military operations/actions;

2 - You cannot lure your opposition in with a flag of peace/surrender (white flag) and then take up arms against them;

3 - You cannot booby trap the dead or wounded;

4 - You cannot hold captive and torture/mutilate/butcher civilians;

5 - You cannot torture/mutilate/butcher enemy soldiers.

Unfortunately, OUR opponents do not follow these guidelines. They do everything that you are not supposed to do. That soldier was in the right when he acted as he did. You cannot take a chance with your life or the life of your companions, which in this case included the anus with the camera.

If you listen to the soundtrack of what occured, you will hear, in te background, a siren, shots being fired, and an explosion. Guess what that was, folks? Enemy firing from another mosque, and another booby-trapped body which killed at least one of our soldiers.

---------

On a side note, anyone wishing to be embedded with our troops should go through bootcamp and all the necessary training required by the military for a soldier to be deployed. At least then the reporter/cameraman would have a clue, and probably a lot of respect. At a minimum, they would be less of a detriment and burden to the soldiers who have to protect them.

Marines kill people! thats there job! they're brain washed in boot camp to be this way. why the big surprise? this is such b******t!!

I saw Airborne82 XXX'd his comments out. I saw he was in Vietnam in the "68 time frame. I also saw a post from someone in the 173d Airborne in Vietnam same time frame. I was in Vietnam same time frame with 26th Marines. I was a 19 year old infantry Marine. Now I don't know how many of the posters on this site have been in close combat but I am thinking very few. I have. I spent 13 months living day to day in fear. Yes fear. I am not very good at expressing my feelings but let me try to let you guys know what it like to be in close combat.

Try to imagine when you were doing something that had your mind totally focused and something startled you. Like mowing the yard and a friend drives a car by and honks the horn. You almost crap your pants. Your heart is racing and your entire body goes into overdrive. Well, think about being in a place where you live in that state of mind for days or weeks on end. You see death. You kill. You no longer think of the enemy as human. It's me or them. You've seen you friends - everyone in the unit is your best friend at this point - die horrible deaths or mutilated to a point they wish they were dead. Life is a second to second ordeal.

Now you have been trained to be a infrantry man or Marine. Your job is to close with and kill the enemy. After you have been exposed to the day to day riggers of close combat the training takes a back seat to your survival instinct.

I am here to tell you that there isn't an infrantry man - Army or Marine who has not gone against the "rules of engagement" at some time or another in the "heat of battle". You become an animal just out of the need to survive.

It's awfully easy for arm chair quarterbacks to spout off at the mouth about how this "kid", yes "kid" of 18-19-20 years of age reacted to pressures very few in todays society have or will be exposed to.

I want you to know as a former Marine he is my brother and I will defend him to the death. I don't take to kindly to people making judgements about things they have not experienced.

The United States sent this young man to do a job. He has placed his LIFE on the line for the United States. He deserves our support not our speculation.

I wish I could meet someone who was so perfect that they had full control over their emotions when placed in a situation such as this youngman was placed in. To see this reduced to a verbal argument on who was right or wrong makes me sick.

Now I said I was not good at expressing myself so I will let you comment however you wish. I'll just leave you letting you know I served from 1968 to 1994. The older I get, and I am getting OLD, the more it pisses me off when we put our children in harms way and don't give them our total support.

This is all IMHO>

Your are right, and thank you.

quote:

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Originally posted by motorcyclenut:
He deserves our support not our speculation.

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Whoa... Those are some scary words.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: El Mamerro,

Motorcyclenut:

You have an out-fu@*ing-standing way of putting it like it is.


I wonder if wonderboy the roving reporter is still in country and plans to go back out with the Soldiers and Marines. It would be tragic if he were to "get caught in the cross fire". That wound really tare me up in side. If he is smart he better get the hell out of dodge.

We should be thanking the men and women in uniform that are risking their lives for an ideal, for a better world.

Motorcyclenut, I have never served, but I have deep respect for those that have. I have heard first hand accounts from people I know who served in Vietnam, of the living moment to moment, never really letting their guard down.

To those that have served and are currently serving, you are heros.

To those that sit in judgement, walk a mile in their boots first, then cast your stones.

Alan

If you read my post, you would know that I agree with what you said, motorcyclenut.

Azsar, 'no one will ever know what another man is thinking' - if that is the case then we should abolish the justice system because they decide fates every day - multiple times - without ever 'truly' knowing.

Everyone would just say they didn't mean to or that wasn't what they were thinking.

This situation is big enough where commanders in the field felt an investigation was neccessary. The same commanders who should 'save that kid's butt at whatever cost'. I agree that the tape puts pressure on the commanders, but they made the choice to investigate and I support it.

Maybe there is something worth investigating. Maybe there is not. Just dismissing the whole ordeal due to emotion is nonsense.

The point about 'the enemy does not follow the rules so screw it' is not valid. That does not change the rules for the marines - no matter how much you feel it should.

I realize this is mostly an emotional subject. My only point is to treat the situation fairly without biased.

Failure to follow orders is wrong - everyone agreed earlier - so why should breaking the rules be allowed?

Knowingly shooting an unarmed/harmless person is against the rules. Oh, and azsar, YES there are ways of figuring that out besides 'knowing truly what was going through his mind'.

The very court system you are so quick to defend, to re-state again, does it every single day.

I'll end here because I think you feel I am against the marine's practices. I believe those young men make the best decisions with the information they are given. I would rather a mistake be made than them losing their life - but that does not constitute a free pass.

You feel he is innocent with little knowledge and a censored tape. I will wait to see what the investigation uncovers - all the while hoping he is innocent.

Sox