quote from Mike D:

Bush is fit for the job, has proved it and it chaps you ASS!

Can you explain what this means?

quote from michaelsean:

Perhaps it's your own guilty conscience that is making you believe this.

Hmmmm. Can you explain why I would have a guilty conscience? Because I'm against Bush? Please enlighten...

I can't read your conscience. All I know is that a lot of libs run around saying the admin calls them unpatriotic if they don't agree, and they can never come up with one instance where they alluded to this. So I'm thinking we may have a "Telltale Heart" kind of thing going on.

Mike

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln

Specific examples miss the point. There is a pervasive atmosphere in this administration that if you do not agree with them you are unpatriotic and un-American. Do you disagree with this perception?

I don't have a problem with Kerry talking about his Nam record. What I have a problem with is his voting record where he proceeded to undermine almost every major weapon system this country tried to develop in the past 20 years. I know many Gulf Vets let me tell you something people. They are pissed of the thought of not having weapon systems like the M1 tank (Kerry voted against it), F15 Eagle (Kerry voted against it) etc etc. The list goes on and on and on in fact it involves about 2/3 of the best weapon systems in the US arsenal today. Without them believe me we would have had a lot more solders killed in the last two Gulf wars.

Then we have his outrageous remarks after the war. I mean you guys should really read some of the **** he and his buddies (read Jane Fonda) were saying. And this is the guy that will continue the war against terrorists? This is the guy we need to depend on to make the right decisions whether to defend our country and its world influence? This is a crucial election. The stake of the US influence is on the line and I know most liberals would slap me if I mentioned the word “influence”. Like it or not however we have so much in terms of opportunities, freedom and standard of living because we are the most powerful nation on earth. If you liberal idiots are ashamed of that then go live in Russia. It’s an influence that millions of veterans have fought and died for and will continue to do so. We don’t need a leader with a past history of calling veterans baby killers.

We have this guy James B talking about “friends” being buried. My father was one of the first US solders in Nam buddy, eventually doing 3 tours, getting wounded in his 3rd tour. He left my mother and I in 64 and volunteered for his 3rd tour unlike Kerry where he tried everything to get out ASAP (and did). I would post what he thinks of Kerry and his Jane Fonda type buddies but I am sure it would all be blipped out. This from a guy that thought Roosevelt and Kennedy were our greatest presidents. Suffice to say he thinks Kerry is a disgrace to the Democratic party and to this nation.

quote:

If you liberal idiots are ashamed of that then go live in Russia...

Moscow bound, I am. Any Cuban cigars there? Wow!

All that serve this country have my respect.

That said, I would expect the service record of any serious presidential, congressional, etc. candidate to be damn near impeccable. I would further expect such candidates to project a certain level of modest pride, stoicism, if you will, and leave it at that. At the end of the day, I do not hold a service record to be a pre-requisite for my vote or at all a pre-cursor for the effectiveness of our elected public servants.

Kerry and/or his camp, however, chose to make his service record a primary selling point. Fine, whatever... IF IT WERE IMPECCABLE, WHICH IT CLEARLY ISN'T. I don't know about any of you other BToL, but a 4 month stint and an 'opt out' because he accumulated some hardware and not because of debilitating injury -- this simply doesn't wash with me. As we know, he then joined up with the 'bad-mouth the military' tour. He's selling, and I ain't buying. Again, he's got my respect for his service but not my vote.

Furthermore, I've got to ask what he's done with these last 4 decades, inasmuch as reconciling the internal troubles he had with yesteryear's military and today's military. The very last thing this country needs is a liberal dove CiC flying around trying to lead this country in wartime, for fighting Islamist extremism will extend far beyond Iraq.

You say I can't read your conscience,(I can't) but you are tuned in tot his "pervasive atmosphere". I'm sorry, but there should be some quote out there that leads you to think this. actually there should be weell more than one quote if this were the case. What if I turned it around and said there is this pervasive atmosphere that liberals are unpatriotic? You'd say give me one example of a liberal being unpatriotic, and I'd say "you can't see or feel it. You can't even hear it. But it's there."

Mike

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln

I can't believe some of you are hairsplitting Kerry's war service in light of how G.W. spent his time during the Vietnam era.

Kerry volunteered for Vietnam combat service and served honorably. Unless you've been there, I think it's pretty arrogant to minimize his service.

I mean, for most of you conservatives, Kerry could get an endorsement from Jesus Christ himself and it wouldn't get through. You're committed to hating the guy.

Mike,

I can't draw up instances where Bush et al actually called people unpatriotic. The Republican attack machine is too smart to be so blunt. They just imply it all the time. The best instance I can think of is the campaign against Max Cleland. Now, I know the standard Republican response is that no one ever really called him that, so I just draw your attention to the following link. The point I'm making is that the unpatriotic attacks are implicit in Republican rebuttals to antiwar sentiment, anti-military voting records.

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20021202&s=notebook120202twp

As far as liberals being 'unpatriotic' it seems to be that conservatives throw that label around pretty easily. I think liberals are more patriotic than conservatives, because they love not only what American is, but what it has the potential to be. Liberals can admit that our country has flaws and can do things better and still love it.

Some conservatives take the position that to criticize anything about our country is to be unpatriotic, when the opposite is true.

And that intolerant attitude does have name, but it's not "patriotic"; it's "fascist."

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Originally posted by michaelsean:
DC here is what troubles me about Kerry. Any war vet I've ever talked to is rather humble and reluctant to talk about what happened.

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Good point, i seem to noticed that most people who openly talk about their war weren't really involved. they had base jobs or were far from the action. I'm usually impress by how many people i've know for a while and one day someone makes a comment out their service and I'm taken back because I was unaware of this. and even when i say "Steve, i had no idea you went to Vietnam" the response is usually, and plainly, "yes i did" and nothing more.

bottom line, both Bush and Kerry are sickening with military. #1) Bush's military record are misteriously lost and #2) Kerry will boast about his 3 purple hearts but won't allow his medical records release

mikeyd when are you going to say something original that you haven't read from some right wing site? You have yet to have an original thought. BTW do you remember the guy that took the fall for some atrocities that never happened...Lt. Calley...that a lie too?...also...if Kerry and his crewmates are liars and have ulterior motives...why couldn't the same be said about all these other guys you quote so patriotically. Could it be because???they conform(and I will be generous here) to your way of thinking.

mike: although I agree with you in principle I think Kerry has been pushed to the point he has no choice but to bring up his military record. The right wing pundits have trivialized him and his record to that point, although none of the current administrations chicken hawks have ever been close to battle(excepting Powell, maybe some others, but few), and the notion has been purveyed that he would be weak in defending this nation, IMO a croc of road apples. I don't hold the same esteem for the president that most of you do, and I see errors where many of you don't. Kerry is far from perfect, but to my way of thinking he is no worse than is now in office, military not being the only issue. Problem is the uniter now has the whole friggin' world against us and more on the way. He has definitely united all terrorist's and I can't see anything but us going it alone more and more with many more casualties both to our soldiers and to Iraqi civilians, and the "real deal" is still out there with his palm pilot making plans for us...many of you refuse to accept this.

windsor...take a page out of Cheney's book why don't you. Who died and made you president? Try to gather information other than what the television commercials for Bush are saying OK.

Most importantly there isn't anyone here IMO that even has the faintest notion that any one of our constituents here will change their opinion about the current administration, many of you wouldn't even if it was shining in your face, you still would have to save face, (how many would have accepted gas at 2.00 a gallon with Clinton or Gore in office)....the real proof is in the undecided vote. If the people of the US re-up for four more years then we are deserving of what we get.

for those of you that persist....."let my people go"....the man has been out of office for almost 4 years now!!!! as many of you like to say about Florida....deal with it!

DC
S.N.O.B. #1009
You've probably heard of me!

And a big Amen to Double C. These other guys have been "Rush"ified beyond all hope of redemption.

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Originally posted by Double Corona:
mikeyd when are you going to say something original that you haven't read from some right wing site? You have yet to have an original thought.

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I'm sorry that my cut and paste style shoots down you pathetic claims with the truth and facts. I can see why you don't like it, too bad, deal with it!

quote:

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BTW do you remember the guy that took the fall for some atrocities that never happened...Lt. Calley...that a lie too?...

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What does that have to do with this topic?

quote:

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also...if Kerry and his crewmates are liars and have ulterior motives...

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It seems they are and they do...They want him to be president at any cost.

quote:

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why couldn't the same be said about all these other guys you quote so patriotically. Could it be because???they conform(and I will be generous here) to your way of thinking.

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It could but it would not be true. Now, if you have proof that they are lying, post it here and lets see it! I'll wait....For a looooong time I'll bet!

Mike D

I hate violence! I hate it so much I am willing to kill anyone who tries to use it against me.
-- Mike Waidelich

DC, I wouldn't have attempted to blame Clinton for $2.00 a gallon. Really not much the President can do about it. BTW, I thought Bush was such good friends with the Saudis. When are they going to bail his ass out?

As far as Kerry being pushed to the point, he's the one that is running on his war record. He can't stop talking about four months in his life while conveniently forgetting his 20 yr Senate career. Plus, if you are claiming you are able to be President because of your four month service, then I guess it makes sense to look very closely at those four months. Also remember that it was the Dems who went after Bush's service record first.

As far as the whole world being against us...just plain wrong. Most of Eastern Europe is with us, of course Britain and many others. A lot of the countries against us are against us because they were making so much money looting the oil for food program, yet they are somehow the noble defenders of truth, and we are once again the bad guys.

quote:

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I think liberals are more patriotic than conservatives, because they love not only what American is, but what it has the potential to be. Liberals can admit that our country has flaws and can do things better and still love it.

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So Bill, were you falling all over yourself gushing at the patriotism of conservatives during the Clinton Administration?

Mike

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln

"I don't care what he nor GWB were doing 30+ years ago. I care about the present and the future. I find Kerry's vision or lack thereof scary. I will vote for President Bush. I feel he has restored some of the values the office lacked for the 8 years prior and he has a better vision for t he future than Kerry. That's the bottom line. The rest is partisan BS..."

Very well put!

I see you're drinking 1% milk. Is that because you think you're fat? Because you're not. You could probably be drinking whole milk.

...Mike didn't I hear that the Saudi Royals promised GWB that they would lower the price of oil in time for the elections? The latest to make noise is Poland...they are looking to skate! I don't think we have the support you continue to wish for.

...Also why were some of the 9-11 parts left out until after the election.

...mikeyd: you never answered my question when I said Kerry was in the sh itin Nam where was George?

..and I once heard or read, doesn't really matter, that an idiot doesn't consider himself to be an idiot. Now I'm not what you would call an intellectual or even wise for that matter, but my belief is that they were correct! I thank you for that!! ...

DC
S.N.O.B. #1009
You've probably heard of me!

About the Saudis. At first Kerry complained that they were going to lower prices in time for the election. (no substantiation). Later he complained that the admin wasn't exerting enough pressure on the Saudis to increase output. I think that would be another flip-flop.

Mike

"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged" - Abraham Lincoln

...was this before GWB said he was the "war" president and wanted to be the "peace" president or was it after praising the 9-11 commission on the fine work they did... after he tried to keep it from happening going so far as to keep Condi from testifying until she had to?.....

DC
S.N.O.B. #1009
You've probably heard of me!