From Gonzo: Is this THE perfect country? Probably not, but it is OUR country. Try living (not visiting) in another country and you will soon appreciate what we offer here. Including the freedom of speech to offer your opinion. Try that in China, Cuba, North Korea or someplace with a leader like Chavez ... I am a child of immigrants ( like EVERYONE here) but I do agree that if you dont like it, then leave...stop whining and get in and fix it, cope with it, or leave. Its pretty simple.
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From Presley:From one servicemember to another, I share your views brother. Welcome
Welcome to the boards from me, too, Gonzo.
First of all, you'll hafta decide for yourself over time whether or not the fact Presley shares your views is a good thing or not.
Either way, I hafta tell you, as I've said here in the past, I have a problem with the "love it or leave it" crowd, of which you're apparently a member ... those who would tell us criticism of America, or rather American policies we think are wrong and detrimental to her interests, is unpatriotic, unAmerican, disloyal and a sign we "don't like" the United States and should get the hell out. And I've never understood why you guys continue say things like, "Try doing that in China, Cuba or North Korea", as though the very fact those governments are highly restrictive and have no respect for human rights means we shouldn't take advantage of our constitutional rights as Americans. What's up with that? Are you somehow under the impression that we're not aware of our good fortune in being American, or that those who live elsewhere aren't so blessed as we?
Here's the thing, Gonzo. Dissent is the highest form of patriotism. Thomas Jefferson said that, and while it may be a bumper-sticker aphorism, it's nonetheless true -- it's not only allowed in America, it's encouraged, and it's one of the things you put on a uniform to protect and defend. Remember that oath? Without criticism, without dissent, and without a vigilant, free press, African-Americans would still not be allowed to vote or eat at a lunch counter or take a seat on a bus. There'd still be legal sweatshops and the labor movement would have been crushed by the goons. The Vietnam War would be entering its 45th year. There'd still be black lists. Nixon would have gotten away with it. Hell, for that matter, there wouldn't even be a United States of America. To abandon dissent and criticism when America is wrong -- and please don't tell me you can't accept that she is wrong from time to time -- is to forfeit freedom and democracy itself. It's not only patriotic, it's necessary, and those that do love America no less than you.
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 2600 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
Originally posted by Jack White: Either way, I hafta tell you, as I've said here in the past, I have a problem with the "love it or leave it" crowd, of which you're apparently a member ... those who would tell us criticism of America, or rather American policies we think are wrong and detrimental to her interests, is unpatriotic, unAmerican, disloyal and a sign we "don't like" the United States and should get the hell out.
There is a difference between being critical of American policies and flat out hating her. There are plenty of liberals that beleive America is the source and the instigator of most of the world's problems. There are also hundreds of professors teaching these ideas in college classrooms as I type. I am all for honest thoughtful debate, but I cannot tolerate the "blame America first" crowd. The fact is that America has had the most successful foreign policy of any major country.
Posts: 1252 | Location: WI | Registered: November 16, 2007
Originally posted by Presley:"Barack knows what it means living in a country and a culture that is controlled by rich white people," Wright said. "Hillary would never know that.
"Hillary ain't never been called a n****r. Hillary has never had a people defined as a non-person."
What is wrong with that? Is it not true?
Quit cherry-picking and read everything inflammatory that was said.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." Ronald Reagan
The Vietnam War would be entering its 45th year. There'd still be black lists. Nixon would have gotten away with it. Hell, for that matter, there wouldn't even be a United States of America. To abandon dissent and criticism when America is wrong -- and please don't tell me you can't accept that she is wrong from time to time -- is to forfeit freedom and democracy itself. It's not only patriotic, it's necessary, and those that do love America no less than you.
Jack, I really don't credit those 60's whack-jobs who were on drugs for ending the Vietnam War and who's to say what would have happened if we had finished what we began? Secondly, dissent is hardly the highest form of patriotism, I would say service is much higher up than merely disagreeing with your countries policies. Also, Clinton did get away with it, didn't he? Nixon sure as hell wasn't any worse than him. Finally, quit blindly following Obama. What about your saying..."engage elected officials critically"? You come off here as quite hypocritical when any liberal democrat is caught in something, you are always quck to defend and take them at face value. BTW, I believe Gonzo was speaking about the whack-job celebs who said they'd move to Canada is Bush were re-elected but did not. We'd be much better off without them.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." Ronald Reagan
1-Watching Olbermann and J. Alter on MSDNC (both Obama Messiah worshipers)report on this story. The expression on their faces looked like someone had just told them their mom had died.
2-The Clinton mafia at work. It was only a matter of time before they pulled out the switchblades. The libs want to point to the RNC for doing this. But they know it has the Clinton (and allies) fingerprints all over it.
3-Libs trying to rationalize Obama messiah's wacked out preachers words and actions as nothing big. And Obama really doesn't know about the words of his preacher of 20 years. LOL!!
4-McCain having the luck of Ringo Starr. Broke last summer to a nominee that can't win, to currently leading in the polls. A firm 51% of Americans dislike Hillary and Obama messiah just blew up like a stick of dynamite. Did McCain make a deal with the devil? What luck!
5- As good as the Hillary-Obama clash has been, it's only going to be more entertaining. Pa will go big for Hillary yet she will never overtake Obama in the delegate count.
The Democrat convention will make 1968 look tame. Jesse and Rev Al are making their plans now. The fight for Super Delegates will be vicious.
In the end: Hillary vs. McCain for Prez
Winston Churchhill -
"If you are not a liberal at twenty, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at forty, you have no brain"
Posts: 319 | Location: Atlanta metro | Registered: June 17, 2006
Originally posted by seabreeze: My favorite observations of this fiasco:
1-Watching Olbermann and J. Alter on MSDNC (both Obama Messiah worshipers)report on this story. The expression on their faces looked like someone had just told them their mom had died.
2-The Clinton mafia at work. It was only a matter of time before they pulled out the switchblades. The libs want to point to the RNC for doing this. But they know it has the Clinton (and allies) fingerprints all over it.
3-Libs trying to rationalize Obama messiah's wacked out preachers words and actions as nothing big. And Obama really doesn't know about the words of his preacher of 20 years. LOL!!
4-McCain having the luck of Ringo Starr. Broke last summer to a nominee that can't win, to currently leading in the polls. A firm 51% of Americans dislike Hillary and Obama messiah just blew up like a stick of dynamite. Did McCain make a deal with the devil? What luck!
5- As good as the Hillary-Obama clash has been, it's only going to be more entertaining. Pa will go big for Hillary yet she will never overtake Obama in the delegate count.
The Democrat convention will make 1968 look tame. Jesse and Rev Al are making their plans now. The fight for Super Delegates will be vicious.
In the end: Hillary vs. McCain for Prez
I agree, seeing those newscasters have to report it, I had the feeling they wanted to cry. I don't see how McCain can lose, all he has to do is keep doing what he's been doing. People don't like Hillary and Obama is tarnished.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." Ronald Reagan
Originally posted by Jack White: Unless evidence to the contrary is produced, I'm inclined to accept that, just based on my own experience and how I feel about the relationships my wife and I have formed with our own church community.
But that's just me.
Jack, Wright did not retire till a month or two ago. The sermons being shown on various news networks date back to 2001...and I have no doubt he has been injecting this kind of stuff into his sermons well before 2001.
You can't possibly tell me that Obama has been living in a bubble for over a decade, completely unaware of his minister's strong political beliefs. Some of the video being shown was at his church. You also can't deny that Obama knew about Wright's long standing relationship with Farakhan in years past (Obama is on record acknowledging it some time ago). You also can't deny that the Farakhan was promoted in sermons in the church for many years...such that an award was given to Farakhan a year ago. Obama had to of known all of this, at the very least.
In fact, I would say Wright is pretty much a militant black activist...the parallel of Farakhan, but on a different religious platform. i spent much of last night watching replays of his sermons and also his interview on Hannity and Colmes and there is no doubt that this guy is...to say the least, fervent about his beliefs. I find it impossible to believe that he never once mentioned any of this militant black propaganda to Obama, considering Obama considered him more than simply a pastor.
If Obama put him on an advisory council and considered him a mentor, then there must have been many private convsersations between the two of them. Judging by the character of Wright from his public appearances, I have no doubt that many words were exchanged that were not strictly confined to religion.
I think Obama is making a real bad move by denying that he knew or heard of any of this until a year ago. He should admit he knew and publicly demonize Wright if he wants a chance to get past this without losing his campaign. I don't believe that Obama suscribes to any of that nonsense...but still, he is setting himself up for a big fall if someone should uncover more video or proof of Wright giving anti-American sermons at times when Obama, or even just his wife, was present.
Originally posted by LuckyBreak: Sobek, I am assuming you have read my earlier post directed at you and ignored it.
Once again, you should refrain from political discussion because your command of the English language is too poor to properly convey your thoughts. Just because you are thinking one thing, does not mean it translates into the words you type. Blaming native English speakers for not understanding your posts is fairly absurd. Your posts are full of contradictions and I find them not worth my time.
Originally posted by LuckyBreak: Sobek, I am assuming you have read my earlier post directed at you and ignored it.
Once again, you should refrain from political discussion because your command of the English language is too poor to properly convey your thoughts. Just because you are thinking one thing, does not mean it translates into the words you type. Blaming native English speakers for not understanding your posts is fairly absurd. Your posts are full of contradictions and I find them not worth my time.
I think you will need more than one person to say that. If someone else other than you and Presley testifies that my command of the English language is "poor" and that my messages do not convey my thoughts properly and that they contradict themselves, I will stop posting in any political discussion, and this time I mean it.
Of course i know better than saying this, but I will say it anyway: if you could speak and write my native language as 1/3 as I speak and write your native language, I'd give you anything you want.
______________________________ H.O.Roshdy.
"Stick to your blue collar RASS, I will smoke Cohibas"- ccsigloIII.
[[The Cabron of Cairo]]
Posts: 1684 | Location: Egypt | Registered: June 14, 2007
Jack, I really don't credit those 60's whack-jobs who were on drugs for ending the Vietnam War
I was neither a whack job nor "on drugs". Nor was anyone involved in the movement that I knew personally. Which, of course, is not to say there weren't any. Besides, I'm pretty sure it wasn't only the anti-war activists who spent some time stoned in those days. Hell, in Vietnam, the grunts and their lieutenants were going on patrol stoned a lot of the time. You have no such personal knowledge of that period, I know, but the movement, I remain proud to say, ended the Vietnam misadventure.
You never spoke to the other accomplishments of criticism and dissent in America that I mentioned ... the labor movement, civil rights, universal suffrage, an end to McCarthyism. To hear you, I think you would have rooted for the firehoses and police dogs and the Selma-to-Montgomery marchers would have been thrown in jail and left there.
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Secondly, dissent is hardly the highest form of patriotism, I would say service is much higher up ...
Okay, Jefferson got patriotism all wrong, even though he practically invented it. You, Airman Presley, have it right. You're again making clear your belief -- a mistaken one -- that as active duty military, for whatever your motivations, you are more of a patriot and love America more than I do, and have the moral high ground here.
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Also, Clinton did get away with it, didn't he? Nixon sure as hell wasn't any worse than him.
Nixon sure as hell was far, far worse. Nixon committed a serious felony and betrayed his oath of office, was saved from an impeachment conviction only by his resignation and from prison only by Ford's pardon. Read the transcript of the tape again. Read Sen. Goldwater's memoirs. Are you really going to debate this??
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You come off here as quite hypocritical when any liberal democrat is caught in something, you are always quck to defend and take them at face value.
Okay, maybe there's some truth there. But I've said I don't know the truth about how much exposure Sen. Obama had to Dr. Wright's radical ideas. None of us here do, other than the statement he made Friday. At this moment, I'm not all that sure how my opinion of the man would change if I knew he had been engaged in that type of dialog with his pastor. I do know your opinion that he should have immediately left his church family isn't my opinion. In our church in similar circumstances, we would have just fired him (though I don't know if you can do that in the UCC like we Baptists can).
But I really take issue with you and some others here, because you assume he's lying for the sole reason he's a liberal Democrat and you're a radical conservative, but "engaging officials critically" doesn't mean making assumptions of guilt because of personal political ideology. I wanted and expected him to speak to the issue, and he did. If he's lying, I have no way of knowing, at least not right now -- we may or may not find that out. But that aside, you're right -- I do give people I admire and support more leeway and more benefit on the doubt than I might someone else. I'm not sure that's not a natural, human inclination, but I'll have to examine it.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jack White,
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 2600 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
1-Watching Olbermann and J. Alter on MSDNC (both Obama Messiah worshipers)report on this story. The expression on their faces looked like someone had just told them their mom had died.
Mine was watching Sean Hannity on Fox waxing positively gleeful, as though someone had just given him an expensive new toy and a date with Kristen.
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 2600 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
There is a difference between being critical of American policies and flat out hating her. There are plenty of liberals that beleive America is the source and the instigator of most of the world's problems.
Yes, there is. There are all kinds of liberals, just as there are all kinds of conservatives. Neither is monolithic. I think I'd take some issue with your use of the adjective "plenty", but your point isn't invalid. As long as you'll admit that America, not being an infallible political entity, sometimes contributes to the world's problems.
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 2600 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
Jack, I really don't credit those 60's whack-jobs who were on drugs for ending the Vietnam War
I was neither a whack job nor "on drugs". Nor was anyone involved in the movement that I knew personally. Which, of course, is not to say there weren't any. Besides, I'm pretty sure it wasn't only the anti-war activists who spent some time stoned in those days. Hell, in Vietnam, the grunts and their lieutenants were going on patrol stoned a lot of the time. You have no such personal knowledge of that period, I know, but the movement, I remain proud to say, ended the Vietnam misadventure.
Vietnam was started by President Kennedy, no?
You never spoke to the other accomplishments of criticism and dissent in America that I mentioned ... the labor movement, civil rights, universal suffrage, an end to McCarthyism. To hear you, I think you would have rooted for the firehoses and police dogs and the Selma-to-Montgomery marchers would have been thrown in jail and left there.
Rooted for the firehoses... No, not at all.
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Secondly, dissent is hardly the highest form of patriotism, I would say service is much higher up ...
Okay, Jefferson got patriotism all wrong, even though he practically invented it. You, Airman Presley, have it right. You're again making clear your belief -- a mistaken one -- that as active duty military, for whatever your motivations, you are more of a patriot and love America more than I do, and have the moral high ground here.
Sorry Jack, dissention in and of itself is not patriotic. I highly doubt facing the enemies we do now, that Thomas Jefferson would think it patriotic to call Gen. Petreaus-Betrayus or to blow up recruiting stations.
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Also, Clinton did get away with it, didn't he? Nixon sure as hell wasn't any worse than him.
Nixon sure as hell was far, far worse. Nixon committed a serious felony and betrayed his oath of office, was saved from an impeachment conviction only by his resignation and from prison only by Ford's pardon. Read the transcript of the tape again. Read Sen. Goldwater's memoirs. Are you really going to debate this??
Yes I am. Bill Clinton perjured himself and lied to the American people. I will debate this because a lie is a lie Jack.
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You come off here as quite hypocritical when any liberal democrat is caught in something, you are always quck to defend and take them at face value.
Okay, maybe there's some truth there. But I've said I don't know the truth about how much exposure Sen. Obama had to Dr. Wright's radical ideas. None of us here do, other than the statement he made Friday. At this moment, I'm not all that sure how my opinion of the man would change if I knew he had been engaged in that type of dialog with his pastor. I do know your opinion that he should have immediately left his church family isn't my opinion. In our church in similar circumstances, we would have just fired him (though I don't know if you can do that in the UCC like we Baptists can).
But I really take issue with you and some others here, because you assume he's lying for the sole reason he's a liberal Democrat and you're a radical conservative, but "engaging officials critically" doesn't mean making assumptions of guilt because of personal political ideology. I wanted and expected him to speak to the issue, and he did. If he's lying, I have no way of knowing, at least not right now -- we may or may not find that out. But that aside, you're right -- I do give people I admire and support more leeway and more benefit on the doubt than I might someone else. I'm not sure that's not a natural, human inclination, but I'll have to examine it.
If Obama was a republican, and his pastor was a part of the KKK, you'd have been the first to post about it.
"Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. We didn't pass it to our children in the bloodstream. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on for them to do the same, or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children and our children's children what it was once like in the United States where men were free." Ronald Reagan
Great debates guys. Not really sure where to take all this, other than to say no matter how great we think our problems are, America is still the GREATEST country in the world. Love it or leave it.
'Question authority. Think for yourself. Filter out the spin. Engage elected officials critically. Make them defend what they're doing in your name. Derive the truth. Speak truth to power.'
Posts: 2600 | Location: Boston | Registered: April 16, 2005
Originally posted by Jack White: [QUOTE]My favorite observations of this fiasco:
Mine was watching Sean Hannity on Fox waxing positively gleeful, as though someone had just given him an expensive new toy and a date with Kristen.
That's not much fun Jack. Sean is a self-indentified righty sitting next to self-identified lefty (Colmes). Everyone expects Hannity to be gleeful.
The source of my joy in watching Olby and Alter is those hard core lefties are presented to us on NBC as "mainstream" poltical commentators. And they simply couldn't hide their grief
Winston Churchhill -
"If you are not a liberal at twenty, you have no heart. If you are not a conservative at forty, you have no brain"
Posts: 319 | Location: Atlanta metro | Registered: June 17, 2006
