Has it really come to this?

The similarities are frightening.

Tab

When the facts come out, if they do, then perhaps we will know. Until then, it is all conjecture.

Agreed.

But one has to admit, even as Bush has, that things do not look too good at this point.

I'm not pointing any fingers or making any political points here, just very concerned that history is repeating itself, as it often does.

Tab

I heard some "eyewitness" accounts today on CNN. If they are speaking truly, it is a horrible tragedy.

The dark mystery of it is why troops would ever do such a thing. It's a cliche now, but war has a bizarre and awful effect on people.

If found to be true, likening it to the type of anger- or adrenaline-charged atrocity that has happened in virtually every major conflict since recorded history began is valid and the perpetrators should suffer the consequences.

Likening it to Mi Lai, without the facts known, the situation vetted and all of the actual perpetrators identified, is the kind of political BS rhetoric that some Americans will use to defile the 99.99999% of good work that our leaders and servicemen and women have sacrificed to accomplish.

I can only hope that the vast majority of the media and the public will be responsible enough to let the investigation happen before they vilify U.S. efforts 'en masse'. I guess that will be difficult with Mr. Murtha declaring "killings in cold blood" before the facts are revealed.

this is horrible and the way it looks its not a one off either.

I find the whole situation quite ironic. The Marine Corps trains 18 to 20 year olds to kill, kill and then kill some more. This is a good thing. We want our first in to be the meanest sob's we can muster. I for one sleep better at night knowing they're on the job. Of course they are well trained in other battle arenas, but the bottom line is to decimate the enemy.

The ironic part comes in when after we send our troops into battle in some shithole in the mid-east where they are being killed day in and day out, we are shocked and amazed that something like this can happen. Frankly, I'm surprised it took this long. Put yourself in the same situation, your buddies getting massacred left and right, some of the worst living conditions on the planet and you are expected to behave like a 'gentleman' warrior. It's a very thin line.

While there is no plausible humane excuse for crossing this line, it does happen. Hence the Mi Lai analogy.

No, this terrible alleged war crime 'should' not be tried in the press, but we all know that it will. There’s just no way around it.
As for me, it's obvious this incident occurred. All that is left now is to determine the perpetrators and their individual roles.

Tab

I know it's only a few a bad apples but the unfortunate thing is that this is not an isolated incident. Let's see how this plays out as it obviously--along with other alleged incidents--has a detrimental effect on our nation's image around the globe.

Tab , why shouldnt it be tried in the press ?, should it be forgotten or hidden ?, should we take it as normal that this happens, is it OK ?

I do fully agree with you on the part of surprise, its no surprise that it happens, its only a surprise that it so long to come out.
its also clear that it happens,but the ones responsible should be dealt with quickly and shot themselves.

It's sad. All the facts aren't out--but it looks bad.

The real horror is that it taints the sacrifice and efforts of the overwhelming majority of our troops. How some are already spinning this for political gain is disturbing.

Blackie, how do you reconcile "the ones responsible should be dealt with quickly and shot themselves" with your comment in the Moussaoui thread:

"ok and I am against the death penalty anyway.it shows how little we have evolved since the caves."

???

I know Cigoz, the keyboard got the better of me, of course they should not be shot,but dealt with.

its terrible.

OK, I agree. Complete investigation. Let the chips fall where they may. Punish the guilty.

Meanwhile, try to keep a handle on your bellicose Swiss blood...

he-he-he-he-he

Swiss blood, hahhahahahah thats a good one.

I said it in another post. In order for this us win to this thing, we have to go in there and kick some a$$ and break sh*t.

Part of our problem over there is yet again, we're trying to fight a "civilized war." Never mind that other side doesn't give a jolly goddamn about our Western civilites and would do worse to us.

If this happened this is the langague that these understand and appreciate, and accept. Saddam keep control over a majority population by his willingness to "dirty," when need be. We should do the same. Should be be going to such extremes on every instance? No. But if the Iraq population doesn't want to respect and love us, then terror and fear are acceptable alternatives.

Will ignore OMR's post. I hope he is just looking for someone to take some rather stinky bait!! "Terror and fear are acceptable alternates" Yikes.

I agree with Tabs description of the situation. No win for the troops. Cannot condone violence against innocents but man, what a position to be in.

Hopefully nailing Zarqawi will expedite the end of the worst of the insurgency and some kids can get home to their loved ones.

Yes, terror and fear are components of war, but not the cold blooded murder of children. If we ourselves become the terrorists, then we deserve any reprecussions associated therewith and are no better than the scum we seek to eliminate.

No, the perps of these heinous war crimes should be severely punished and put away for life. They cast a dark shadow over our finest and should be not only punished for their crimes, but also for the damage they have done to the Corps and their country.

Tab

OK here is my opinion on this situation and thread.

1. You can not compair Vietnam to Iraq. They are completely different. Different time, place , culture,and military (draft vs volunteer).

2. Do not condem these young Marines until all the facts are in and the investagation and trial is over. Also unless you have been there it is impossable for you to understand the situation from the soldiers point of view. Sure its easy to decide what you would do when you have time to think about it, never been in combat, and you have not seen your best friend and fellow soldier killed a day or two before.

In these situations these soldiers many of whome when back home are considered not responsible enough due to being under age 21 to buy a beer, yet must make life and death decisions in seconds every day and under extreme stress. So unless you have been in combat you can not possably understand their situation and circumstances that led up to this situation.

I would strongly advise all of you to not condem these young Marines until you have all the facts and really unless you have served in combat, because you really dont know what the hell your talking about.

Think about this:

These young Marines, many who are like I stated in my last post are not even old enough to buy a beer back home, (remember when you were 19 or say 20 years old). Some come from bad situations back home and the military is a way out for them. Either through military retirement or a way to pay for college. Some may not even believe we should be there but out of a sence of duty and loyalty to their unit and their country do as they are told and deploy to Iraq. They are targets the entire time they are there from IED's, snipers and a host of other dangers. Imagin this lets say for arguments sake that a day or so before this happened you are a 20 year old Marine on patrol in Iraq. Your best friend is on your right, you even went through basic training with him. All of a sudden an IED goes off next to him or he is hit with an RPG. It turns his upper body into a pink mist of blood, bone and brains. You are covered with this pink mist of what used to be your best friend. Its in your eyes, mouth, ears, nose, the pockets of your uniform, and all over your equipment. However you are not wounded and have to help get what left of your best friends body on an evac chopper.

For days it is all you think about. You think about his young wife, his parents, and maybe even his young children who are to young to understand where their dad went and why he will never come home.

You do your best to clean yourself and your equipment but you cant seem to get the smell of rotting flesh off. Its all you smell all day and night so it is impossable to to not think about your friend and his wife and family. It eats at you 24 hours a day 7 days a week. You begin to blame yourself even though there is really nothing you could have done to prevent his death.

Remember you are only 20 years old.... The entire time during your training you are being programed to kill people and at the same time you are making a bnd between yourself and your best friend who was killed.

Having said all that now you go on a raid. A fire fight begins. You are under the most extreem stress you have ever been under and more than the vast majority of people out there will ever see. Something moves in front of you while explosions and bullets are flying. Out of a sence of survival, training and wanting to avenge the death of your best friend you open fire on the target that moved in front of you. All this happens in less than a second.

When the smoke clears and the objective secure you see that the target you just engaged was a woman or a child.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY? And since some news crews that constantly looks for anything to report that is negative about President Bush and the war in Iraq was there and now reports to the world that you just killed a woman or a child that was unarmed.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

Now after all that is said there are folks that are safe and secure back home that have never served in the military and never been in combat and never been sprayed with the brains, blood , and bones of their best friend, are watching CNN and getting half the facts now have condemed you as a killer of unarmed women and children even before an official investagation has taken place. Even some worthless Congressman and former Marine and whos main objective is to bash the President and his decission to go to Iraq, calls you a murderer and passes judgment on you before an official investigation has been conducted. This worthless former Marine Congressman expressis his opinion on every liberal anti Bush and anti war in Iraq news station all over the world.

WHAT WOULD YOU DO? WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

THINK ABOUT IT BEFORE YOU JUDGE THESE MARINES BEFORE YOU HAVE ALL THE FACTS AND BEFORE THE OFFICIAL INVESTAGATION IS OVER!!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Raven35031,

Raven, remind me to skip your posts for a while, (along while)..

When charle would hide with/behind women and children, and try to ambrush us, we would return fire.

When I went to Nam, my dad (Army WWII,Pac.)told me I had three things to remember, the same three, I told my son when he went to Iraq:
1. Do your duty. (Kill Gooks)
2. Come home a live. (Kill more Gooks)
3. Bring your buddies home.(Kill many Gooks)

My Lai, had a body count of over 340

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Bones,

quote:

Originally posted by Bones:
Raven, remind me to skip your posts for a while, (along while)..

When charle would hide with/behind the women and children, and try to ambrush us, we would return fire.

When I went to Nam, my dad told me I had three things that I must do, the same three, I told my son when he went to Iraq:
1. Do your duty. (Kill Gooks)
2. Come home a live. (Kill more Gooks)
3. Bring your buddies home.(Kill many Gooks)

My Lai, had a body count of over 340

Bones,

Haditha is not My Lai.......

My post was based on my personal combat experience. I am a MSG with 28 years with both Regular Army and Army National Guard service. I did 3 tours in El Salvador with the 20th Special Forces Group Alabama National Guard attached to the 7th Special Forces Group. This After serving as an Arctic Paratrooper in Alaska, on a Long Range Recon Partrol Team at Ft Polk, LA. Re-enlisted for Special Forces and after finnishing the "Q" course I was assigned to the 1st BN 10th Special Forces Group in Germany, However spent most of my time in Europe in Spain and Italy. I decided to go to collage and got out of Regular Army and joined the 20th Special Forces Group Alabama Army National Guard, where I did 179 day short tours when I would need money while attending college.

After college I stayed in the Guard and served in Desert Storm and did a Peace Keeping tour in Bosnia. I also served in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I hate war and I hate what war does to women and children and there is NEVER a day that goes by that I dont think about the friends I lost and the women and children that suffered and were killed. There is no honor in war only death. I have no probled taking out soldiers that we fight against but you NEVER get over the deaths of women and children.

Because of my experences and service to my country I really get fired up when I hear folks that NEVER served in the military let alone in a combat situation talk sh*t about reports they see on the news while drinking a beer and smoking a cigar then has the balls to judge our soldiers in situations that they do not have all the facts and all they know obout it is what they see on the local news. You have to walk the walt to talk the talk.

NEVER trust what you see on the news.............