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if you did indeed know the scripture in the bible, you'd know that the coming anti-christ is indeed from the revived Roman Empire,

I respectfully suggest that's a common misreading of Revelations 13.

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No McCain does not have to answer for Hagees remarks.

Oh yes, he does.

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Originally posted by Jack White:

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if you did indeed know the scripture in the bible, you'd know that the coming anti-christ is indeed from the revived Roman Empire,

I respectfully suggest that's a common misreading of Revelations 13.

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No McCain does not have to answer for Hagees remarks.

Oh yes, he does.

Well then, perhaps you can properly interpret it, as well as let us all know who it is that gives you the authority to know what that proper interpretation is?

3-SO HE CARRIED ME AWAY IN THE SPIRIT INTO THE WILDERNESS: AND I SAW A WOMAN SIT UPON A SCARLET COLOURED BEAST. FULL OF NAMES OF BLASPHEMY (or covered with blasphemous names). HAVING SEVEN HEADS AND TEN HORNS. The city is shown to be full of the names of blasphemy against God. The seven heads are explained in Rev 17:9.
17:18-AND THE WOMAN WHICH THOU SAWEST IS THAT GREAT CITY. The woman is portrayed as a great city. WHICH REIGNETH OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH. During at least part of the Tribulation, this city shall reign over the kings of the earth.
17:9-AND HERE IS THE MIND WHICH HATH WISDOM. THE SEVEN HEADS ARE SEVEN MOUNTAINS, ON WHICH THE WOMAN SITTETH. The city is shown to be sitting on seven mountains or hills.
There is a city, that is a trade capital, that does sit on seven mountains, having a worldwide religion that is part of the city itself. That city is Rome.
17:4-AND THE WOMAN WAS ARRAYED (or dressed) IN PURPLE AND SCARLET COLOUR, AND DECKED (or was glittering) WITH GOLD AND PRECIOUS STONES AND PEARLS. The city is portrayed in these colors and glittering. Do these previous words also fit the church at Rome? What colors have the pope and his cardinals worn in the past? These same colors have also been used in certain Roman celebrations. We have pictured here a false religion that is in Rome. HAVING A GOLDEN CUP IN HER HAND. The woman (the city) had in her hand a golden cup (the whore). The city and false religion are as one.FULL OF ABOMINATIONS (or filled with abominable things) AND FILTHINESS OF HER FORNICATION (or the filth of her adulteries). It is full of abominable teachings, sin, and deception. It is full of wine that intoxicates people and dulls their senses to the pure truth of God’s Word. Satan is clever. He mixes truth with deception. He mixes God’s Word with lies, and few suspect what is really happening.
18:16-ALAS, ALAS, THAT GREAT CITY, THAT WAS CLOTHED IN FINE LINEN, AND PURPLE, AND SCARLET, AND DECKED WITH GOLD, AND PRECIOUS STONES, AND PEARLS! The word "fine linen" is added in this verse.
17:5-AND UPON HER FOREHEAD (the forehead of the city) WAS A NAME WRITTEN (or this title was written on her forehead-NIV), MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. MYSTERY. This indicates something secretive. BABYLON. This denotes what religion this is, as well as its origin. THE GREAT. This denotes the magnitude of this false religion. THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS. Meaning the origin or source of false doctrines and religions. AND (of the) ABOMINATIONS (mother of filthiness and immorality) OF THE EARTH. This false religion is the mother of abominations. It might be noted that MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT is on her forehead, not the name of Jesus. It might be asked, "Why is Babylon written and not Rome?" This is explained a little further on in detail.
17:6-AND I SAW THE WOMAN DRUNKEN (the word drunken indicates overindulgence) WITH THE BLOOD OF THE SAINTS, AND WITH THE BLOOD OF THE MARTYRS OF JESUS (or with…the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus-NIV). AND WHEN I SAW HER, I WONDERED WITH GREAT ADMIRATION (or I was greatly astonished). This city, Rome, was drunk with the blood of the saints. In this city, multitudes of people were killed that bore the testimony of Jesus. As the Catholic church emerged, it also was responsible for killing multitudes of the saints. It might be asked, "What religion killed the saints that dared to possess a Bible? What religion today feels that they only have the right or knowledge to interpret the Holy Scriptures?
We have pictured a false religion that preaches Jesus, but has killed many that followed Jesus. It is a religion that claims they are holy, but in God’s eyes they are an abomination.

18:4-AND I HEARD ANOTHER VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS (or share) OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT OF HER PLAGUES. God is telling "His" people, to get out of this city and false religion.
18:5-FOR HER SINS HAVE REACHED (or are piled up) UNTO HEAVEN, AND GOD HATH REMEMBERED HER INIQUITIES

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Oh yes, he does.

Uhh, no, he doesn't.

Oh, and you did refer to Rev 13.

And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name. 2The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion. The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority. 3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast. 4Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, "Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?"
5The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. 6He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.[b]

9He who has an ear, let him hear.
10If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity he will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.

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Originally posted by Jack White:

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at least what Hagee said actually stems from religious views

Go read the Gospel of Matthew, then tell me where it says the church founded on Peter is satanic and that the descendents of Peter are the anti-Christ. Or anywhere else in either testament.

Well, the Roman Catholic Church claims it is descended from Peter's church, but this is a tenuous argument. But that's all on the periphery.

I don't think the Hagee issue is comparable to the Wright/Ayers problems Obama has. And McCain has clearly repudiated what the guy said.

Look, McCain's kids went to Catholic school. Does that strike you as being anti-Catholic?

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Now, as far as his handling of the minor insurrection that he turned into the greatest debacle in American History, let’s give Lincoln the benefit of the doubt and pretend like he didn’t deny any fundamental rights to Southerners in the months leading up to the firing on Ft. Sumter.

Yeah, yeah, yeah ... I grew up hearing that stuff. My mother and both grandmothers were proud members of the Daughters of the Confederacy, and maintained the War of Northern Aggression wasn't over.

I'm not clear on the point you're making by quoting Lincoln's Inaugural and his recognition that the people have the right to amend the Constitution. That aside, in one sentence, you recognize the unconstitutionality of secession, but in the next, you imply Lincoln, in upholding the constitution by maintaining the union, was the 'aggressor'. Look, every high school American history student knows Lincoln played fast and loose with the Constitution in order to save the nation. But most serious historians agree he never overstepped legality. He rightly assumed to himself all powers not delegated in the Constitution, which includes the legal authority to suspend habeas corpus.

Lincoln's constitutionally-questionable actions during wartime were actually pretty comparable to what our current president --- your hero -- and the Patriot Act are doing today.

Listing Abraham Lincoln with Stalin, Hussein, et. al., is just silly on its face, and not debateable. At least, I choose not to.

By the way, the best book I know on the subject of the runup to the Civil War is Abraham Lincoln and a New Birth of Freedom: The Union and Slavery in the Diplomacy of the Civil War, by Howard Jones. You might also try Doris Kearns Goodwin's Team of Rivals: The Poitical Genius of Abraham Lincoln.

But then, you probably wouldn't like either of them.

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Well, the Roman Catholic Church claims it is descended from Peter's church, but this is a tenuous argument.

Yeah, I agree it is. It's an argument I have with my Catholic brother all the time. Most telling, in my view, is the two different words for "rock" in the original Greek manuscripts of Matthew.

Presley, I'm a Christian Protestant, a deacon in a Baptist church here in the Boston area -- which I mention only to indicate I'm not unfamiliar with Scripture -- but I don't take the Bible as word-for-word inerrant, especially apocryphal prose like Revelations. I certainly have no problem with you or anyone who does, but it's not an area in which I enjoy arguing, nor can it possibly be fruitful.

I know I continued to make an issue of it when I responded to your post mentioning it, and I shouldn't have.

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Originally posted by Jack White:

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Well, the Roman Catholic Church claims it is descended from Peter's church, but this is a tenuous argument.

Yeah, I agree it is. It's an argument I have with my Catholic brother all the time. Most telling, in my view, is the two different words for "rock" in the original Greek manuscripts of Matthew.

It would be very intiguing and fascinating to think that the Pope were a true descendant to Peter. However, many things that the Catholics do that I do not personally agree with,as they are not written in the Bible, such as kissing the Popes ring.

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Look, McCain's kids went to Catholic school. Does that strike you as being anti-Catholic?

No. I've never thought McCain was anti-Catholic, any more than I've thought Obama thinks HIV/Aids is a government conspiracy. I just continue to wonder why he sought out Hagee, of all the evangelicals he might have, and solicited his endorsement.

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Originally posted by Jack White:
Presley, I'm a Christian Protestant, a deacon in a Baptist church here in the Boston area -- which I mention only to indicate I'm not unfamiliar with Scripture -- but I don't take the Bible as word-for-word inerrant, especially apocryphal prose like Revelations. I certainly have no problem with you or anyone who does, but it's not an area in which I enjoy arguing, nor can it possibly be fruitful.

I know I continued to make an issue of it when I responded to your post mentioning it, and I shouldn't have.

I don't think Revelation is apocryphal. I more disturbed by the set that thinks they have a firm handle on what it "means." Then again, Christians don't generally have a good reputation when it comes to negotiating figurative language.

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Then again, Christians don't generally have a good reputation when it comes to negotiating figurative language.

There are all kinds of Christians, Cori. Don't paint them all with too broad a brush. Some have no problem at all with figurative language.

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Originally posted by Jack White:
Presley, I'm a Christian Protestant, a deacon in a Baptist church here in the Boston area, but I don't take the Bible as word-for-word inerrant, especially apocryphal prose like Revelations. I certainly have no problem with you or anyone who does, but it's not an area in which I enjoy arguing, nor can it possibly be fruitful.

I know I continued to make an issue of it when I responded to your post mentioning it, and I shouldn't have.

I am curious about your interpretation of part of Ezekiel, if you believe in prophecy, this prohecy seems to be being fulfilled at this time.
Ezekiel 38
The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of [a] Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him 3 and say: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of [b] Meshech and Tubal. 4 I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army—your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. 5 Persia, Cush [c] and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, 6 also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops—the many nations with you. who are they today?
7 " 'Get ready; be prepared, you and all the hordes gathered about you, and take command of them. 8 After many days you will be called to arms. In future years you will invade a land that has recovered from war, whose people were gathered from many nations to the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate. They had been brought out from the nations, and now all of them live in safety. 9 You and all your troops and the many nations with you will go up, advancing like a storm; you will be like a cloud covering the land. are the storm clouds gathering?
10 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: On that day thoughts will come into your mind and you will devise an evil scheme. 11 You will say, "I will invade a land of unwalled villages; I will attack a peaceful and unsuspecting people—all of them living without walls and without gates and bars. 12 I will plunder and loot and turn my hand against the resettled ruins and the people gathered from the nations, rich in livestock and goods, living at the center of the land." 13 Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all her villages [d] will say to you, "Have you come to plunder? Have you gathered your hordes to loot, to carry off silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods and to seize much plunder?" '
14 "Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say to Gog: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: In that day, when my people Israel are living in safety, will you not take notice of it? 15 You will come from your place in the far north, you and many nations with you, all of them riding on horses, a great horde, a mighty army. 16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
17 " 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Are you not the one I spoke of in former days by my servants the prophets of Israel? At that time they prophesied for years that I would bring you against them. 18 This is what will happen in that day: When Gog attacks the land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused, declares the Sovereign LORD. 19 In my zeal and fiery wrath I declare that at that time there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. 20 The fish of the sea, the birds of the air, the beasts of the field, every creature that moves along the ground, and all the people on the face of the earth will tremble at my presence. The mountains will be overturned, the cliffs will crumble and every wall will fall to the ground. 21 I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Sovereign LORD. Every man's sword will be against his brother. 22 I will execute judgment upon him with plague and bloodshed; I will pour down torrents of rain, hailstones and burning sulfur on him and on his troops and on the many nations with him. 23 And so I will show my greatness and my holiness, and I will make myself known in the sight of many nations. Then they will know that I am the LORD.'


Rosh-modern day Russia.
Persia-Modern day Iran.
Put-Modern day Libya
Magog-Central Asia
Beth-togarmah-Turkey.

Never in 2000 years did Russia and Iran form a union. Israel did not even exist till 60 years ago. Food for thought.

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Originally posted by Jack White:

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Then again, Christians don't generally have a good reputation when it comes to negotiating figurative language.

There are all kinds of Christians, Cori. Don't paint them all with too broad a brush. Some have no problem at all with figurative language.

Jack, I am speaking as a Christian. And I feel okay with this generalization knowing full well that there are some amazing Christian thinkers and scholars out there who are thoughtful in their interpretations and don't fall in with uncritical, ultra-fundamentalist types.

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I am curious about your interpretation of part of Ezekiel, if you believe in prophecy, this prohecy seems to be being fulfilled at this time.
Ezekiel 38

No, I don't believe in Old Testament prophecies, including the Messianic ones. I believe most "prophecies" were set down with a specific agenda applicable only to the time in which they were written, and those who would assign them modern meaning -- "fulfilled prophecies" -- are taking them out of that context and shaping them to fit current realities and current political biases. There are even those who today go so far as to urge an Israeli pre-emptive attack, based solely on Ezekiel 38.

(On the other hand, other Biblical scholars think the battle has already happened, and is described in Esther 9.)

But that's just me.

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No, I don't believe in Old Testament prophecies, including the Messianic ones. I believe most "prophecies" were set down with a specific agenda applicable only to the time in which they were written, and those who would assign them modern meaning -- "fulfilled prophecies" -- are taking them out of that context and shaping them to fit current realities and current political biases. There are even those who today go so far as to urge an Israeli pre-emptive attack, based solely on Ezekiel 38.

(On the other hand, other Biblical scholars think the battle has already happened, and is described in Esther 9.)

Hmm, fascinating. However, Israel has not existed for over 2000 years and Russia and Iran have never formed an alliance until today.
I believe the prophecies, because I believe what the bible says and that God is true to his word. I do not believe, however, that Israel should attack preemptively.
Many of the prophecies in both the old and new testament are coming to pass, most significantly, the birth of Israel.

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Israel has not existed for over 2000 years

That's true if by "existed", you mean as a political entity with set boundaries. Others might assign it a meaning of "Jewishness", wherever it exists -- the Jews of the diaspora. In which case, it continued to exist for those 2000 years.