I briefly heard today that there was a complaint by one person about the folding of the American flag at the funeral of a fallen soldier. The veterans organization now has agreed to stop doing this.

I don't know all the facts but I agree with what the interviewee said "for 200 years or so we have been doing this with zero complaints...one comes along and now 200 years of tradition is halted."

He went on to say that it is a symbol of honor, and that the argument against the folding arose out of the apparent religious symbolism. Newt Giengrich had a great spot on this morning when he said that he's sick and tired of these radicals trying to take God out of the United States...ultimately if you try this you come to the founding documents of America...do they plan on in essence re-writing the Declaration of Independence, or Articles of Confederation?

I know it seems like a long shot but I second Newt that I am sick of these people taking their jabs at the U.S., especially in War time.

why are they stopping this? Religious symbolism?

I went to a wedding this year for my friends retired grandfather and that was the most impressive part of the entire ceremony.

There's a bit more to the story.

The burial of a soldier is often accompanied by a recitation of "The Meaning of Each Fold of an Honor Guard Funeral". The White House was receiving complaints because part of the recitation contains the phrase "... the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob".

Accordingly, the VA has stopped the recitation unless requested by the family of the deceased, in which case they will. Honor guards must also now accept requests for recitations that reflect "any or no religious traditions" on an equal basis.

Here's the VA's press release.

I'm posting this just to clarify the issue, not take a stand either way.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Jack White,

Thanks for the info Jack, I knew there was some more to the story--I caught that story as I was getting ready/running out the door this morning and it had been bothering me ever since.

Maybe it's just me but since "The War" on PBS came out and I had been watching it, and talking with my great grandmother about it--I have confirmed what I have thought for a while; that the U.S. is in a sad state of affairs. Comparing the folks like my grandparents where the athletes, actors, singers, whoever all went off to serve their country, it just breaks my heart that there is so much controversy and now this--it just doesn't sit well with me. I would like to see America get off of being blue and red, and being Pro-America like it used to be.

Soooo what exactly is the problem with leaving it up the the family? If you're Hindu, why would you want to hear about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

I could see how people would get upset if they said they just weren't doing it anymore period, but I don't see a problem with leaving it up the family of the deceased, what ever will make the pain diminish, should be done.

I always ask myself, what would Thomas Jefferson think? Since Jefferson was a diest and didn't believe in a Christian God, I don't think he would have a problem with it. You should be free to have them say whatever you want them so say, that's the meaning on freedom.

I'm sorry, was it freedom of or freedom from religion?

It certainly was not freedom to smoke Cuban cigars.

quote:

Originally posted by bamawrx:
I'm sorry, was it freedom of or freedom from religion?

quote:

Originally posted by bamawrx:
I'm sorry, was it freedom of or freedom from religion?

Freedom of religion includes freedom from religion. If you want to be an atheist, you have the freedom to be. I mean, many of the people who founded this country certainly weren't Christian.

People have bad views of people who don't believe in God. I mean, atheists aren't a bunch of people who burn down churches and things of that nature. Sure, some do, but some Muslims fly planes into buildings. They're both generalizations and don't represent the group as a whole.

Maybe I'm not getting the full story or something, but this doesn't seem to be too controversial. I mean, if it would mean more to a family for certain words to be changed, or left out, why not? However they want to remember their loved one is a-ok with me. If they want to say Allah, Shiva, or even Zeus. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

quote:

Originally posted by jms2788:
Maybe I'm not getting the full story or something, but this doesn't seem to be too controversial. I mean, if it would mean more to a family for certain words to be changed, or left out, why not? However they want to remember their loved one is a-ok with me. If they want to say Allah, Shiva, or even Zeus. Hey, whatever floats your boat.

I agree - this is an instance of a small group of far-right commentators taking a story and blowing it out of proportion (something that, in the interests of full disclosure, the liberal press has also been known to do).

What I find somewhat ironic is that they are complaining about families being given a choice. Families having the freedom to choose how they want their fallen loved one to be honored and remembered.

And here I thought that conservatives supported freedom and choice.

Oh, wait, sorry, my mistake - they only want freedom and choice for things that they agree with.

It seems Chip needs to read about the founding fathers of the American constitution, and clearly understand that not everyone is white, Christian and god fearing in the USA. Freedom of religion, and to practice this when you are morning a family member who has sacrificed his/her life, is a key corner stone of most civilized nations.

Chip for someone who claims they are a law student, you really need to get your act together. Between your blatant disregard for non-solicitation, laughable support of ponzi schemes, and lack of understanding of basic freedoms in the US, you really have a chip on your shoulder.

And you have already had 2 of your threads removed by CA admin, so it appears you are off to a great start.

Seeing your pathetic posts really “breaks my heart”.

Wow, I tell ya what man this forum is an endless series of eggshells to walk on. Steve why is it that when you exhaust your opinion on one matter you find it necessary to pull out all kinds of personal punches to someone else in some attempt to validate your point? Lay off. This is a completely separate post from what you've stated and I didn't mention anything else about it--I've moved on from it and have not beat a dead horse; try doing the same--you might accumulate spare time for another cigar throughout the day

As to the matter at hand--which people click on to read rather than what you think about another forum member:

It's not the freedom of religion or right to choose how to remember a fallen loved one that I'm in disagreement with. I have an absorbent amount of respect for those that not only serve our country, but those that give their lives doing so. The reason I put this post up to get some different ideas is that before this came out I had no idea that there was a subtle Christian undertone to it. To me (and many many others) it is a uniform way for the military to show its respect for a soldier, a distinct honor that no other memebers of society get. I think that these people have committed themselves to a body that does things in an uniform fashion, and the burial services in my opinion are no different. But now, it seems like the time for the fallen soldier to be honored by folding the draped flag and a firing squad, could become political and possibly take away from the respect they deserve; and THIS is why I put this post up--because I think by drawing attention away from the soldier it will rob them of the honor they deserve.

I hope this clears up any confusion as me pushing an agenda--I really didn't mean for it to come off that way, nor cause personal remarks, but hey I guess you have the Freedom of Speech (learned that one last week in law school Steve)

If you read the link that Jack provided, you will see that the only VA burial procedure that is changing is the reading of religious scripture.

1) Volunteer honor guards are authorized to read the so-called “13-fold” flag recitation or any comparable script;

2) Survivors of the deceased need to provide material and request it be read by the volunteer honor guards; and

3) Volunteer honor guards will accept requests for recitations that reflect any or no religious traditions, on an equal basis.

So I am not sure what you are concerned about.

The veterans are NOT going to stop folding the flag, they are only offering to modify their religious recitations.

What should concern you more is a far right religious group that insists on invading the privacy of these military funerals and condemning the family's lost solider.

I hope this religious nut case group is litigated into oblivion.

quote:

Originally posted by Chipster52284:
I caught that story as I was getting ready/running out the door this morning and it had been bothering me ever since.
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The reason I put this post up to get some different ideas is that before this came out I had no idea that there was a subtle Christian undertone to it. To me (and many many others) it is a uniform way for the military to show its respect for a soldier, a distinct honor that no other memebers of society get. I think that these people have committed themselves to a body that does things in an uniform fashion, and the burial services in my opinion are no different. But now, it seems like the time for the fallen soldier to be honored by folding the draped flag and a firing squad, could become political and possibly take away from the respect they deserve; and THIS is why I put this post up--because I think by drawing attention away from the soldier it will rob them of the honor they deserve.

Seems to me like you read a snap shot of an article, heard some biased comments by conservatives and went along with it. Sure it's been a tradition for 200 yrs. So was slavery. I don't hear anyone complaining about ending that "tradition". Newt is trying to keep God in America? Does he not realize America is a melting pot of different races and religions? I have no problem of taking God out of the government though. Didn't the founding fathers say something like "....the separation of church and state"? Whatever happened to that one, cuz every time I look at my money, it says "In God We Trust"...WTF?

Chip, I know I used some extreme examples in my reply, but that's just to make my points stronger, not necessarily meaning that I'm comparing the military tradition to slavery (you should know this as a law student ) The bottom line is, the funeral is not about the military, it should be about the family and their wishes. They are the ones who should decide what is the honorable thing to do at the funeral of their loved ones. Besides, this was approved by the veterans affairs org right? I think Jack White's signature is directed at situations like this. Take in the information and think for yourself instead of listening to some biased report and get all ticked off.

BTW, Chip, did you serve in the armed forces?

Here is my two cents worth. We are talking about modifying military tradition if I understand you all correctly. The reciting of the 13 fold is part of that tradition. So if we say it is okay to modify it then is it or is it not okay to exchange Taps for When the saints come marching in? I was never in the military and I know there are many faiths observed by our brave people in the forces. Eveyone in our military regardless of faith, volunteered to be a part of our military heritage and have learned and lived it. They deserve the full tradition.

quote:

I'm sorry, was it freedom of or freedom from religion?

Point very well made.
Duly noted.
Everybody wants to change something about this country.First it was in the schools now in a traditional ceremony .
Damn Liberals.

Boknows--I realize you used strong examples for your reason, and I don't think anyone would relate this to slavery seriously either but it's good to make the clarification with this bunch.

I have not served in the service, my father, uncles, and grandfathers have--I'm registered of course and would go as soon as asked (which might not be too far off w/Iran acting as it is)

I think "hereiniraq" made a good point--these men and women have signed up for the military and all that comes along with it--I think that each soldier should make the choice how they want to be remembered, they are the ones after all that chose to inlist and gave their lives. I think by signing up, they consented to the military burial service.

quote:

I think "hereiniraq" made a good point--these men and women have signed up for the military and all that comes along with it--I think that each soldier should make the choice how they want to be remembered, they are the ones after all that chose to inlist and gave their lives. I think by signing up, they consented to the military burial service.

Ok, even if they did consent, what's the harm in changing a few words to something that would mean more to the family? I mean, sure, don't take away the folding of the flag, but like I said before, if something means more to someone than talking about Abraham, why not let them? I'm not liberal, I've voted conservation since I could vote, so maybe I'm not understanding this correctly...

What harm does it do to the military to change a few words to comfort the family? Also, if the fallen solider didn't believe in God, you're not sending him off with well wishes, you're sending him off with nothing. Why not do what he likes, he's the one that gave his life, right?

I apologize if I'm missing the point, I just scanned threw the article and posts quickly.

All of those nutjobs wanna keep god out of everything, until they are on their deathbed, an accident, or some near-death experience.

Then, at that moment......They reach out to god, sometimes screaming "please god! don't take me yet" or "please god! He/She is all I have left to live for!"

Then, they find religion and accept god. Friggin retards.

I know I am a new guy here and no disrespect to you ole' Timers.

But this whole thing is mostly bunk. When a person joins the military they must register their religous preference. This is branded in medical records and on their dog tags, in case they cannot convey their beliefs in a medical situation.

Depending on the specific region of the honor gaurd they will confirm this prior to services for the deceased vet.

Most of the people that are being offended where family members who where not in the military and may not have the same religous beliefs. If anyone bothers to check their records with the VA they will find the correct preference and could steer the honor gaurd in the right direction. The point is the service should reflect the beliefs of that particular veteran, to honor THEM not the family or a tradition.


Sorry for the rant.... love the discussion

God bless our fallen and take the politics and radicals out of military tradition!