All good points Eric.
It does not seem so black and white. It is a sin to kill and one would think to kill over property is never right. Then again the concept of greater good muddes the waters.

Every situation must be evaluated.

I think that if someone has broken into your home, all bets are off.

If you are on my property with intent, you will sit down at the working end of what ever I get my hands on, until law enforcement arrives.

Alan

Some dolphins kill for fun.

You can shoot someone for trespassing and stealing from your property, but your gonna be charged with one of four homicides when it's over with.

I think that depends upon the state in which you live.

In some states, such as Florida, and I understand more are states coming to the same conclusion, you can use whatever force you feel is necessary to protect yourself and your property.

The "Castle Doctrine"

1 - establishes,in law, the presumption that a criminal who forcibly enters or intrudes into your home or occupied vehicle is there to cause death or great bodily harm, therefore a person may use any manner of force, including deadly force, against that person.

2 - It removes the "duty to retreat" if you are attacked in any place you have a right to be. You no longer have to turn your back on a criminal and try to run when attacked. Instead, you may stand your ground and fight back, meeting force with force, including deadly force, if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. [This is an American right repeatedly recognized in Supreme Court gun cases.]

3 - It provides that persons using force authorized by law shall not be prosecuted for using such force.

4 - It also prohibits criminals and their families from suing victims for injuring or killing the criminals who have attacked them.

In short, it gives rights back to law-abiding people and forces judges and prosecutors who are prone to coddling criminals to instead focus on protecting victims.

Gov. Bush Signs Florida’s New

Castle Doctrine

quote:

Originally posted by OP8:
Some dolphins kill for fun.

LOL Cats kill for fun..

Baboy Ako,

Alabama just adopted this same law. In Alabama it also includes your vehicle.

With all due respect to any who should have to use force in this manner. Do you think there are enough people out there with the intelligence to use such an allowance? I can see people getting into greater trouble (not just legal, but the aftermath of taking another life) once they shoot, thinking they are in the right. I grew up in a family with guns. My father is a retired police officer, (now working with the D.E.A.) and we used to go hunting with both Bows and guns when I was younger. I know my responsibility with a firearm, but I would be willing to bet most don't. I guess I just have seen both sides of it with my up-bringing.
Oh, and OP8, I love the "Tool" picture and reference with your username.

quote:

Originally posted by THEMONK:
All good points Eric.
It does not seem so black and white. It is a sin to kill and one would think to kill over property is never right. Then again the concept of greater good muddes the waters.

I believe that "murder" is an sin, not killing.

quote:

Originally posted by rikaguilera:
With all due respect to any who should have to use force in this manner. Do you think there are enough people out there with the intelligence to use such an allowance? I can see people getting into greater trouble (not just legal, but the aftermath of taking another life) once they shoot, thinking they are in the right. I grew up in a family with guns. My father is a retired police officer, (now working with the D.E.A.) and we used to go hunting with both Bows and guns when I was younger. I know my responsibility with a firearm, but I would be willing to bet most don't. I guess I just have seen both sides of it with my up-bringing.
Oh, and OP8, I love the "Tool" picture and reference with your username.

rikaguilera,

Since your Dad works for the DEA I bet he can get a copy of the FBI's annual Uniform Crime Report where is takes reported crimes and breaks them down by state and race and in other ways. OK now look at the violent crime rates of those states that have the strictest gun laws and compare them to the states that have fewer gun laws and what do you see? OMG the states with the highest violent crime rates have the strictest gun laws!! WOW I wonder why that is?

Now lets look at TX and FL the two states with a large population that a few years ago inacted laws allowing citizens to carry concealed weapons as long as they had a permit. The liberal, anti-gun, pro criminal rights, wish the world was fair and equal do gooders predicted that there would be shoot outs like Dodge City in those states and the murder rates would go up. Well gess what? It did not happen, as a matter of fact the violent crime rates went down in those states. Hmmmm wonder why that happened? Could it be that criminals fear being shot by an armed citizen? Could it be that the folks that applied for and got a conceal carry permit were actually responsible enough to use the weapon only when it was legal to do so by their state law?

I am very happy to see my state wake up and decide that we have had enough of the thug element of our neighborhoods victimizing people and of our over worked under paid police departments who seem to only be there after the crime took place to do a report. Look people, we are tired of the street thugs ruling neighborhoods and our revolving door criminal justice system where the crimnal has more rights than the victim. Its about time for things to change in favor of the law abiding home owner who is not wanting to be victimized my some drug addicted low life street thug who gets a thrill and makes a living off terrorizing people. Its time we make a stand and say enough is enough and if you decide to profit off of victimizing others then being shot and killed is just an occupational hazzard.

Actually, here in San Antonio, the violent crime rate has gone up this year,. With, guess what, more (higher powered) guns being used in more incidents. Laredo Tx. has had "shootouts" in the streets this year that have caused the deaths of 11 police officers. I stated that I grew up in a fire arm family, and I should add that I live in a law enforcement family as well. I have two uncles on the police force, along with a cousin, and my best friend. I also have an uncle in the F.B.I.,and suprisingly all agree that this is a bad law. I am sure you have your reasons to support it, and they are emotionally held up high in your opinion. But I tend to go with fact by people who actually come in contact with this situation everyday. I also want to say that your reply was well written and intelligent. Not something you see when people speak of such issues. Thank you for that.

Violent crime rose nationally in 2005 for the first time in five years, with an overall jump in homicides; and so far in 2006, San Antonio appears to have followed suit with 22 more murders to date than last year.

An FBI survey of more than 12,000 law enforcement agencies in the United States indicated that from 2004 to 2005 violent crime increased 2.5 percent overall. Property crime decreased 1.6 percent in the same time period.

This taken from a report last week.. Not sure where it is decreasing.

quote:

Originally posted by rikaguilera:
Actually, here in San Antonio, the violent crime rate has gone up this year,. With, guess what, more (higher powered) guns being used in more incidents. Laredo Tx. has had "shootouts" in the streets this year that have caused the deaths of 11 police officers.

Care to share where you got those stats from?

Here is another cut and paste from a local news source. This stuff does not make the national news much, but it is very real.

"LAREDO, (AP) - More than 700 soldiers and federal and state agents took to the streets of this important city on the Mexico-U.S. border Sunday to help local authorities control an increasing wave of violence believed to be drug-related.

On Saturday, two men whose mouths were covered with adhesive tape, were shot and killed inside a sedan left beside a highway linking Laredo and the city of Monterrey. Those killings came less than 24 hours after a gunman on a bicycle opened fire on a group of men smoking marijuana and drinking beer as they sat in a parked car in this city's Colonia Victoria neighborhood around 11:30 p.m. Friday. Two passengers were killed and a bystander was wounded in that attack.

The four victims raised to 20 the number of people who have been killed in ambush-style shootings in Laredo so far this year."

This stuff is not pleasant to talk about, and I really did come here to talk about cigars. So with that, I am going to bed now. You can have whatever feelings you like on the subject. I just know that it is easy to proclaim one thing, but the real facts are much harder to deal with when it is you that is really dealing with them.

OK here is another thing to think about. I am a soldier in the Army National Guard and spent 9 years on active duty in the Army. We took an oath that is very close if not the same that all your kin folks took when they became federal agents and like the oath all Presidents and federal law makers take. It says that "I will defend the constitution of the United States of America against enemies both forign and domestic".

Having said that we have certain rights in this country given to us by the constitition and the bill of rights. I matters not if you agree with the second amendment that gives us a right to keep and bare arms, however if you are in the US Military or a federal agent or an elected federal lawmaker you swore an oath to defend the Constitution against enemies both forgn and domestic and it matters not if you agree with it or not. Its our job to defend it and any soldier, marine, airman, sailor, federal agent or federal elect official you swore an oath to defend those rights and if you fail to do that it is treason and you should be shot.

I spent 6 months on a "Task Force 6" when I was on a Special Forces "A" Team. Where we worked with the US Customs and the DEA. I was shocked at what we witnessed the feds do to US citizens and when offered another tour I quickly said HELL NO I want no part of anything that conflicts with the oath I took to become a soldier.

If your Father and other kin folks work for the Federal Government as Federal Agents they have a duty and a obligation to live up to the oath they took whan they took the job regardless if they agree with it or not.

quote:

Originally posted by rikaguilera:
Here is another cut and paste from a local news source. This stuff does not make the national news much, but it is very real.

"LAREDO, (AP) - More than 700 soldiers and federal and state agents took to the streets of this important city on the Mexico-U.S. border Sunday to help local authorities control an increasing wave of violence believed to be drug-related.

On Saturday, two men whose mouths were covered with adhesive tape, were shot and killed inside a sedan left beside a highway linking Laredo and the city of Monterrey. Those killings came less than 24 hours after a gunman on a bicycle opened fire on a group of men smoking marijuana and drinking beer as they sat in a parked car in this city's Colonia Victoria neighborhood around 11:30 p.m. Friday. Two passengers were killed and a bystander was wounded in that attack.

The four victims raised to 20 the number of people who have been killed in ambush-style shootings in Laredo so far this year."

A question regarding the segments that you posted. Are these shootings by law abiding citizens defending themselves or by criminals shooting criminals? The reason that I ask the question is because laws effect the law abiding only. Criminals do not care about laws.

With that in mind, you have provided good reason for citizens to be armed. Imagine how different the "Saturday attack" would have been if that bystander was an armed law abiding citizen defending his life, bet that "gunman" would have been at a minimum wounded and behind bars at this time.

But, hey, what do I know.

Alan

I'm a liberal democrat but I split with my party when it comes to guns and personal protection. Look what happened in Canada...they asked all gun owners to "surrender" certain arms. So of course, the criminals didn't turn them in -- why would they? -- but regular, law-abiding folks like us did. So the good guys lost their protection, and the bad guys kept theirs.

I think the answer is to continue on the path of better background checks and licensing. Character references are great ways to keep concealed carry permits out of the hands of scumbags -- in my county, you can be damn sure the sheriff is calling all of your references before issuing that permit.

Not that I'm a fan of the NRA...I hate them like the conservatives on this board hate the ACLU...but disarming citizens is going to stop violent crime about as much as banning smoking will stop people from getting lung cancer.

First off, Raven, While your nice long post did not address the titled subject of conversation, it was true. Yes, you took an oath, my family members in law enforcement took an oath. Yes, you have a right given by the second ammendment. I never questioned your right, nor your oath taken when entering the military. Kudos for you for doing such. The question was about citizens taking the law into their own hands, and taking another person's life to protect say a car, t.v. or other personal item. This is not speaking of invading armies, or threats to our national freedom. The question was of lethal force being taken by non peace officers...
"aholsber"- You mean to ask me if there were citizens not armed in the area of Laredo where this particular incident happened..? You are in Boston, I can see that, but just so you are aware, I can gaurantee that the citizens in this area are more than just armed. This is Texas we are talking about, and some stereotypes are true about this state. Not all, not most actually, but the fact that everybody (speaking in very large numbers obviously) carries a gun. It did not change anything.

wow, I wake up and decide to click on and see if there was any good news to start off the day...

quote:

Originally posted by rikaguilera:
"aholsber"- You mean to ask me if there were citizens not armed in the area of Laredo where this particular incident happened..? You are in Boston, I can see that, but just so you are aware, I can gaurantee that the citizens in this area are more than just armed. This is Texas we are talking about, and some stereotypes are true about this state. Not all, not most actually, but the fact that everybody (speaking in very large numbers obviously) carries a gun. It did not change anything.

Please go back and read what I wrote.

Thank you.

Alan