In a forum in 1994, Giuliani had this to say about freedom:

"What we don't see is that freedom is not a concept in which people can do anything they want, be anything they can be," he said at the forum, sponsored by The New York Post. "Freedom is about authority. Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do."

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Given that this is an old quote, I still find it troubling coming from someone who hopes to become the president of a free people.

What did you expect from a dictator.

I'm just beginning to learn about some of the less savory aspects of Giuliani's career...

This sort of thing just creeps me out. Very Orwellian.

If it were not for 911 no one would even remember him.Talk about being in the right place at the right time.I remember his term the Cops ruled with iron hands.Sure crime was at an all time low but at what cost.Remember that poor black guy they shot like 50 times he was reaching for his wallet to show his I.D.Now i ask you would you want someone like that running the country.

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Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do.

Well, in my opinion, the time Giuliani spent as the tough-on-the-mob U.S. Attorney for Manhattan will always be to his credit. He finally got Gotti (and several others) and put him in prison for the rest of his life, and reduced Mafia influence in the city to it's lowest point ever.

I'm thinking his 1994 remarks still reflected that period of his life and that particular aspect of his world view is more developed today. But that'd be just speculation on my part.

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Originally posted by SHEEPSHEAD BAY:
If it were not for 911 no one would even remember him.Talk about being in the right place at the right time.I remember his term the Cops ruled with iron hands.Sure crime was at an all time low but at what cost.Remember that poor black guy they shot like 50 times he was reaching for his wallet to show his I.D.Now i ask you would you want someone like that running the country.

Now, hold on. When Giuliani was mayor, I didn't like him much for precisely the reasons you allude to. He was extremely heavy handed with civil liberties violations - and, appropos nothing, it was he who instituted the city's first smoking ban back in '95. In addition, he was the prosecutor in both the Milken and Boesky cases which I personally regarded as class-envy driven witch hunts.

That said, if you remember how damned awful the city was under Dinkins, few can argue with the results he achieved. (By the way, it's unfair to blame him for those rare incidents of NYPD abuse. Those happen everywhere and under any administration.) Though I detested Hizzoner for the methods he used, he emerged from 9/11 as a colossus. As Bush floundered about and the pundits jabbered on, this guy became positively Churchill or Roosevelt like in his actions and words. (I saw him near my apartment once and felt a nearly uncontrollable urge to shout, "Hail, Caesar!".)

For whatever his present-day faults and his previous heavy-handedness, I think he has evolved as a politician and a thinker since then. He is the only choice for those who value free markets, gay- and abortion-rights, a strong national defense, and a healthcare system not swallowed up by an enormous government monolith.

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(By the way, it's unfair to blame him for those rare incidents of NYPD abuse.

I disagree i have many friends and family in the N.Y.P.D.that served under his tenure. They all said the same thing it was a glorious time for law enforcement."Do as you wish as long as the paper work looks good".Those were the exact words as i recall.For honest cops it made little difference but for the abusive ones it made all the difference in the world.Yes the Dinkins administration was the worst in terms of crime.One might want to remember that when choosing a candidate for the presidency.

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Yes the Dinkins administration was the worst in terms of crime.One might want to remember that when choosing a candidate for the presidency.

David Dinkins is running for president?? Who knew??

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David Dinkins is running for president?? Who knew??

LMFAO! you really are a funny guy.
I think even someone as liberal as you caught my meaning Jack.

Freedom = following authority?

sometimes white is actually black, too

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Originally posted by SHEEPSHEAD BAY:
For honest cops it made little difference but for the abusive ones it made all the difference in the world.

Diallo was not a result of Giuliani, but was a horrible mistake from a skittish cop. The first cop to yell "gun" and fire the first shot happened to trip and fall down right after he fired and the other 3 thought he had been shot by Diallo.

No matter how abusive some cops are, there are none who are willing to go around blasting people like some wild west movie. Dirty and abusive cops do all they can to hide what they do. They don't want that kind of spotlight.

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Originally posted by MeanWillieGreen:
Freedom = following authority?

sometimes white is actually black, too

That's exactly what I was thinking...

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Diallo was not a result of Giuliani, but was a horrible mistake from a skittish cop. The first cop to yell "gun" and fire the first shot happened to trip and fall down right after he fired and the other 3 thought he had been shot by Diallo.

No matter how abusive some cops are, there are none who are willing to go around blasting people like some wild west movie. Dirty and abusive cops do all they can to hide what they do. They don't want that kind of spotlight.

Good point Sobek .But some how i cant help but think if the administration in charge at the time.Hadn't made it so obvious to the officers that served under them .That they basically could act and then think .Without fear of repercussions for there actions in the line of duty.That some of what went on at that time could have been avoided.Granted that the decrease in crime was a direct result of policemen not being afraid to do there jobs.

The challenge for any administration is to find that elusive balance between "not enough" and "too much"

The more aggressive they become with enforcement, the more opportunities there are for abuse, and the more that abuse will be tolerated within the organization.

The concern I have is with the philosophy that "freedom = submitting to proper authority".

There are appropriate limits to the practice of our freedom (what those limits are is the subject for, shall we say, energetic debate!), but that's not the same thing.

An old saying comes to mind.
"Seek the middle ground"