Why can't these pain in the butt do-gooders just let the bars and restaurants who want to allow smoking.
If I ever go to a place where smoking is banned by state law, I will not leave a tip. Instead I will leave a note saying why. Maybe if it starts hitting the workers in the wallets THEY will start putting pressure on lawmakers to stay out of our lives.
Between seatbelt laws, DUI checkpoints, and banning smoking government is intruding too much in our lives.
Pennsylvanian by birth, Nittany Lion by grace of God.
Posts: 248 | Location: Near Allentown Pennsylvania | Registered: March 17, 2004
Here in Michigan the ban bill seems to rise from the grave like a bad zombie movie. I have a http://deaddrifts.blogspot.com blog on it: you can demonstrate that the stats are dubious, you can convince them that ventilation systems are more than adequate, you can invoke freedom of association and private property rights, and it doesn't matter. Because the real motive is "aesthetic bigotry" - that non-smokers believe they lead a trendier, hipper life and that they have the privledge to have their public environment reflect their lifestyle.
===== +++ ===== "Buster wants to fish"
Posts: 185 | Location: Saline, MI | Registered: May 29, 2002
the enormous pot of money that the "Smoke-Free (insert tag here)" groups can score from the states and the fed to support their staffs. It's their job, you know....
===== +++ ===== "Buster wants to fish"
Posts: 185 | Location: Saline, MI | Registered: May 29, 2002
Where I live (California) there has been a total ban on smoking in restaurants, offices, public buildings and bars since 1997 or 1998.
And now some cities are banning outdoor smoking ... such as Los Angeles and Santa Monica, where there is "no smoking allowed on the beaches".
There was a law passed in my city that bans smoking "within 50 feet of any doorway in a commercial area"...which means that the only place to smoke downtown would be in the middle of the street. (That law is NOT being enforced ...not yet anyway).
Posts: 1873 | Location: San Francisco, CA, USA | Registered: August 20, 2003
I just heard news about a proposal to ban smoking in all indoor workplaces, including bars and restaurants. It is being pushed forward by state Sen. Stewart Greenleaf, R-Montgomery County.
I believe this to be an intrusion on our lives by an ever increasingly powerful government. I think that the free market should decide which establishments are smoke-free, or allow smoking.
To me it is all about freedom of choice. There is the freedom of the owners of bars and restaurants to allow their customers have a smoke with thier meal or drink. If they want to be smoke-free, that’s their choice as well.
A customer should also be able to choose a place to go when they don’t want to be around smoke, or one which allows them to smoke.
The government says this is all to protect your health. They have your best interests at heart. There are a lot of things which are bad for you. Eating too much, eating fattening foods, drinking alcohol, and not exercising are just a few.
The government cites obesity as a major health problem now. Is the government going to now tell a restaurateur what food he can sell? Or tell me what I can eat? Or force me to exercise? Twenty years ago the thought of a state-wide smoking ban would have seemed crazy.
I am totally against this proposed law. It has nothing to do with my personal views on smoking; it has to do with my view on the role of government in trying to protect us from every little thing they view as dangerous. From seatbelts, to cell phones while driving, to cigar and cigarette smoke.
Here comes the nanny-state.
Pennsylvanian by birth, Nittany Lion by grace of God.
Posts: 248 | Location: Near Allentown Pennsylvania | Registered: March 17, 2004
quote:Originally posted by PsuGrad: I just heard news about a proposal to ban smoking in all indoor workplaces, including bars and restaurants. It is being pushed forward by state Sen. Stewart Greenleaf, R-Montgomery County.
I believe this to be an intrusion on our lives by an ever increasingly powerful government. I think that the free market should decide which establishments are smoke-free, or allow smoking.
To me it is all about freedom of choice. There is the freedom of the owners of bars and restaurants to allow their customers have a smoke with thier meal or drink. If they want to be smoke-free, that’s their choice as well.
A customer should also be able to choose a place to go when they don’t want to be around smoke, or one which allows them to smoke.
The government says this is all to protect your health. They have your best interests at heart. There are a lot of things which are bad for you. Eating too much, eating fattening foods, drinking alcohol, and not exercising are just a few.
The government cites obesity as a major health problem now. Is the government going to now tell a restaurateur what food he can sell? Or tell me what I can eat? Or force me to exercise? Twenty years ago the thought of a state-wide smoking ban would have seemed crazy.
I am totally against this proposed law. It has nothing to do with my personal views on smoking; it has to do with my view on the role of government in trying to protect us from every little thing they view as dangerous. From seatbelts, to cell phones while driving, to cigar and cigarette smoke.
Here comes the nanny-state.
Pennsylvanian by birth, Nittany Lion by grace of God.
Who said this country was free my friend. its all about the votes, the lawyers, the activits etc etc. Then people wonder why jobs are going overseas. As the man said...YOU AIN'T SEE NOTHING YET. Personal responsibility has gone out of the window. As we speak lawyers are thinking of ways to sue the fast food industry in behalf of all those fat asses out there that think it isn't their fault for eating Big Macs 5 times a week and the only exercise they get is changing channels on the remote. Our rights are being taken away to protect the type of people. Enjoy it. Especially if Kerry wins.
Just so you know the lawmakers will cite the health risk to the workers in the restaurant and bar industry that prolong exposure to second hand smoke is what they are trying to protect against.
That is one of the many arguements that come up during these smoking ban laws. They will cite health study after health study, get a doctor or someone associated with the American Lung Association to recite these findings.
"I do not want to belong to any club that would have me as a memeber" Grouch Marx
and we have to attack these studies - when it comes to 2nd-hand smoke, things are not as conclusive as they are advertised (the '93 EPA study, the Rosetta Stone of these things, was rebutted by a court ruling in '98 as having cherry picked data). You will run up against portrayal of the single mother of three, working two jobs including and eight-hour shift as a waitress, powerless over the crass cigar smokers whose smoke poisons her system. OK, let her go work in a body paint shop...any better? OK, let's kill cigar smoking and watch her tips get decimated...how does that effect the health of her family?
Yet the march to decriminalizing grass, a known addictive drug, marches on. A puzzlement...
===== +++ ===== "Buster wants to fish"
Posts: 185 | Location: Saline, MI | Registered: May 29, 2002
RollCast makes a point as well about the single mother of three and watching her tips decline. I speak from experience as a server I have watched my tips and my fellow server tips decline due to the smoking ban or as they call it "clean air initive". Not that I'm single and raisning three kids but I have seen the decline of tips all the while the people who pass these bills claim the people will come back. It's been a year now since the law went into effect here and the smokers haven't been back.
"I do not want to belong to any club that would have me as a memeber" Grouch Marx
Yea the clean air act and all that bull. Let me tell you how a person leaving next to a busy highway has A LOT more exposure to dangerous carcinogens from all those truck going by than a waitress in a bar. Not only second hand smoke has not been proven THAT harmful but certain air filtration systems that bars wanted to put in and have shown to reduce the level of harmful "smoke elements" to almost nothing were cast aside by these Nazis. WHY? Because if they accepted these measures and others proposed then they and their lawyer cronies would be out of a job.
Rollcast, I was with you until the comment about grass being a known addictive drug (psychogical maybe, but anything can be psych. addictive). Remember, nicotine is an addictive drug too. Much of the research on grass has methodoligical flaws as well. The two issues are quite similar. Of course tobacco is currently legal and grass is not.
"I usually read the obituaries first as there is always the happy chance that one of them will make my day." -Dr. Richard Ames
I'll drop the comment on grass decrim - it's a distraction...we'll focus on what we can agree upon.
Dex, thanks for the story on tips, etc. I know that there are some rather devastating stats on the hit that California hospitality establishments have take because of the ban.
===== +++ ===== "Buster wants to fish"
Posts: 185 | Location: Saline, MI | Registered: May 29, 2002
Fine by me, Rollcast. How's your petition against this silliness in your state going? Any luck turning back the tides of nonsense? I tried to post some links for you, but it sounds like you already had that info.
Just a sidenote: I may have posted this before; if so I apologize. It is important to watch out for this sort of crap at all levels of gov't. My state hasn't gone to these heights of stupidity, but my county tried. I worked at a cigar shop a few years back when the county was trying to ban smoking in all places that allowed "children" under the age of 21 (for their protection, of course). The ban stated that any place that allowed those under the age of 21 to enter would have to ban smoking (presumably to allow bars to continue to allow smoking). As we all know, you only have to be 18 to purchase tobacco. That means that I would have to tell people that they couldn't smoke in the cigar store because we didn't check IDs to see if they were 21 upon entering. Thankfully this measure failed.
"I usually read the obituaries first as there is always the happy chance that one of them will make my day." -Dr. Richard Ames
, but I feel for all thouse who do ;(
