All that means Flashman is I have not yet had time to do my research. When proven wrong, you bet I will eat my words. You have been one of the only liberals that has the IQ above a peanut who will debate without just using their "feelings" (most of the time).

Not that there is anything wrong with debating with feelings so long as you know what the heck you are talking about. And if you get called to the carpet and can't back that sh!t up, then be a man or in Dee Dee’s case a woman and say you were wrong or misspoke (typed).

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:

For crying out loud Mike, this is from the US Departement of Justice !

And, Mike, as you may know, what "seems" and what "is" are often two different things. Even for you...

You wrote, a little earlier, "Show me the data and I'll eat my words." Well, this is one instance where you should. A little humility won't kill you.

After reviewing the 2004 report from BJS you are correct in the fact that the report states that the crimes against Indians were reported to have been committed by non-Indians.

For that I eat my words.

I would like to point out that the report also states that Indian "drunkenness was higher than the rate among all races."

It is possible that being that drunk they may not know who the attacker was and "blamed the white man".

I have worked with and have hired many Indians. Most of whom I have remained friends with over the years. Others have put themselves in a position that makes it impossible to be around them.

In my 20+ year exposure I have seen these guys come to work beat to hell but never once did they say it was from a non-Indian. It was always fights with their own.

Thanks Flashman.

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:
I am not fooled. The report states, and that's one point for you, that 81% of crimes against Blacks are commited by Blacks. But to understand that adequatly, we'd have to go into the murky swamp of the relation between poverty, racism and crime in the context of African-American history. Do you want to go there ?

In Britain it is pretty much the same, there are proportionaly more blacks in jail than any other ethnic group, approx 3% of total population but make up approx 12% of prison the population. They are also more likely to be involved in gun crime (bear in mind guns are totally illegal in Britain) and most of the violent crimes against blacks, are black on black.

Blacks and Bangladeshis are the worst performers in Britain by a long way, but they are not treated any worse than any other race, traditionally Indians and Orientals do very well in Britain, so if it was based purely on colour then Indians would not fair as well as they do.

To put it into context I speak as an ethinic minority with oriental roots although I was born in Britain.

quote:

Originally posted by Alany:

In Britain it is pretty much the same, there are proportionaly more blacks in jail than any other ethnic group, approx 3% of total population but make up approx 12% of prison the population. They are also more likely to be involved in gun crime (bear in mind guns are totally illegal in Britain) and most of the violent crimes against blacks, are black on black.

Blacks and Bangladeshis are the worst performers in Britain by a long way, but they are not treated any worse than any other race, traditionally Indians and Orientals do very well in Britain, so if it was based purely on colour then Indians would not fair as well as they do.

To put it into context I speak as an ethinic minority with oriental roots although I was born in Britain.

12% FOR 3% makes it a 4:1 ratio, whereas in the US, it is a 8:1 ratio. Twice as many, that is not negligeable. And I wonder if the disparities in sentencing and incarceration between whites and blacks doesn't play a role in Britain also. I mean, to claim that the white British folks have no racial prejudices is absurd (and as a French-Canadian - French speaking and Catholic - in an ex-British colony, I know they exist and can have a very profound impact).

And you must admit that Black history in the USA has it's own very nasty particularities. Studies on this are legion. Making parallels with Britain can be hazardous.

There has to be a way to analyse this that doesn't involve reinforcing racial prejudices. Socio-economic and historic analysis is certainly a key to this.

You can't compare what happened in the 1860's and the 1960's to today. Do bad things still happen, you bet. But it's more black on black than anything else as the reports state!

As stated eailer, my family has never owned slaves or hanged a black man. I believe in treating everyone the same until they prove you wrong.

As Chris Rocks says "If you don't want to have your AS$ kicked by the police turn that $hit off!"

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:
12% FOR 3% makes it a 4:1 ratio, whereas in the US, it is a 8:1 ratio. Twice as many, that is not negligeable. And I wonder if the disparities in sentencing and incarceration between whites and blacks doesn't play a role in Britain also. I mean, to claim that the white British folks have no racial prejudices is absurd (and as a French-Canadian - French speaking and Catholic - in an ex-British colony, I know they exist and can have a very profound impact).

And you must admit that Black history in the USA has it's own very nasty particularities. Studies on this are legion. Making parallels with Britain can be hazardous.

There has to be a way to analyse this that doesn't involve reinforcing racial prejudices. Socio-economic and historic analysis is certainly a key to this.

I wouldnt for one moment claim to say white people in Britain have no racial prejudices having first hand experience, after all we have a political party called the BNP (British Nationalist Party) which are veiled racists. To be honest I know very little about black history in the US but have read and know a little bit about the black movement fighting for equality pre/post Rosa Parks, and making parallels would be unfair as far as I know Britain didnt impose restrictions on blacks like they did in the US.

That said, the figures speak for themselves and do correlate, the socio-economic arguement doesnt work in Britain because there are poor communities of all races especially in London and as metioned before, Bangladeshis are one of the worst performing ethnic groups in both the jobs market and in education yet don't have the same proportions in prision. As to the historic analysis, it would be unfair to make comparisons as you said earlier as the two countries were completely different in the routes they took in the integration of blacks.

I do think that that subjects like these can be debated without reinforing racial prejudices but at the same time I dislike using politically correct language to skirt round issues when it can be told like it is.

Intersesting...

This is where an African-American or any Black person should step in and give his or her point of view.
Being rather White myself (although from a cultural minority) I don't think I am abilitated to defend adequatly their point of view, although I could easily to some extent.

Also, I don't care much about political correctness, but being correct is important.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeyd501:
You can't compare what happened in the 1860's and the 1960's to today. Do bad things still happen, you bet. But it's more black on black than anything else as the reports state!

As stated eailer, my family has never owned slaves or hanged a black man. I believe in treating everyone the same until they prove you wrong.

Tha past is what made the present. It is what it is today because of waht was back then. There is a causality link.

Even if you weren't there (nor your family), you have integrated ideas and prejudices that stem from that not so distant history.

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:
Also, I don't care much about political correctness, but being correct is important.

I totally agree

edit: Being that you seem to be a pretty level headed person, I would be interested to hear your theory as to why it would seem black males are more predisposed to crime, lets face it most crime is done by males.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Alany,

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:

Even if you weren't there (nor your family), you have integrated ideas and prejudices that stem from that not so distant history.

There is not one thing wrong with being prejudice. We all are. It all depends on how you apply it.

I am very prejudice about who I let into my house. Who I let watch my kids. Who I work with. Hell, even what I eat.

Aren't you?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeyd501:

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:

Even if you weren't there (nor your family), you have integrated ideas and prejudices that stem from that not so distant history.

There is not one thing wrong with being prejudice. We all are. It all depends on how you apply it.

I am very prejudice about who I let into my house. Who I let watch my kids. Who I work with. Hell, even what I eat.

Aren't you?

Yes, in that sense, but these things have no relationship to race. I was referring to prejudices strictly in relation with race.

As a White American your perception of Blacks, Natives, etc. is partly (I said partly) constructed form cultural patterns that derive from events to which your forefathers did not take part. All societies work that way.

This can represent a positive - you're patriotism and pride being examples - as well as a negative, such as racial prejudices.

This is a quite basic concept and explored many times over.

quote:

Originally posted by Alany:

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:
Also, I don't care much about political correctness, but being correct is important.

I totally agree

edit: Being that you seem to be a pretty level headed person, I would be interested to hear your theory as to why it would seem black males are more predisposed to crime, lets face it most crime is done by males.

Will get back to you soon on this, if somebody doesn't before me. It requires a bit of research and I don't have enough time right now.
Also, racial problems are so marginal over here (though they exist) that I have no preexisting opinion on problems such has the ones you are facing.
That can be good, for objectivity, but I need a bit of time.
And as I said before, it would be great if a Black person would give his or her opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by flashman:


As a White American your perception of Blacks, Natives, etc. is partly (I said partly) constructed form cultural patterns that derive from events to which your forefathers did not take part. All societies work that way.

I never said I was white. American yes, as was my father. My grandfather was the one who immigrated here.

Well, are you White ? If not, you should elaborate.
I'll go first : My family has been on the American continent since circa 1655. I am White, of French origin, with a slight, unclear and undicernable Native American input (Huron) some generations ago.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: flashman,