PFSgoldeneagle brings up a good point. Now I don't know about Muslims, other than to say that if they really practice what they preach, then they are supposed to be peaceful people. However, the radical, islamic-fascist segment of the Muslim population seems to wield the power.

You know what you don't see over there as well as here? You don't see Muslim Americans rising up in protest of Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria and Iran. During WW2 large numbers of Japanese Americans enlisted in the army to support their country. There was an entire division of them. Same thing with the Germans. Where is the Muslim division? Doesn't exist.

As far as it goes over there, I have to agree with PFS. The Lebanese army is useless, as is the government. And the people won't do anything. Personally, I don't know if they deserve to die. But the lack of action against Hezbollah on their part can certainly be interpreted as support. And I'd be willing to bet that's just the case. So let's not cry entirely for a population of civilians if they're supporting Hezbollah or Hamas.

The only thing that is apparently coming to light is how extensive the support network for Hezbollah and Hamas really is. Those to organizations are the puppets for Syria and Iran. The clearer the lines become, the easier it will be to sell US involvement, which I think is destined to come.

This may very well be the outset of World War 3. It took the US a little while before we were involved in the last two big fights.

By the way, it looks like Syria is trying to re-arm Hezbollah. And Israel is making it real hard to do it. Just today, they blew up a big truck load of missiles headed for Lebanon.

Most Lebanese do not support Hezbollah. Most Americans don't take action against the KKK, but that doesn't mean we fully support them. And when Hezbollah has amassed a much greater weapon capacity than the Lebanese army itself, there's not much you can do in the way of confronting them, especially so soon after Syria's departure from Lebanon.

I've seen pleeeeeeenty of Muslim outrage, and dozens of major Muslim leaders and scholars openly and clearly denounce terrorist actions, and exhort their followers to condemn such actions. You won't find these statements in most media outlets (funny, I thought the media was liberal), but they're out there. People just don't seem to care about hearing it.

GoldenEagle,

I'm as hawkish as can be on this issue, however, the majority of the Lebanese population does not support Hizbullah. This is fact. Many, in Beirut especially, have no love for Israel but nevertheless firmly understand that this war is the fault of religious zealots with whom they have nothing in common.

Rising up and runninng the zealots out of town is not always a practical option. If it were, I'd be on a barricade in the streets of DC. ;-)

Sometimes in war it is strategically necessary to incur civilian costs - Hiroshima, for example, or Dresden. Israel is fighting a mortal enemy and must therefore act ruthlessly. This, however, does not make the four month old infant dead from an Israeli airstrike culpable for the actions of Hizbullah or even her parents who may or may not be Hizbullah sympathizers.

The Muslims in certain nations - Turkey, Lebanon, and many countries in North Africa and the Gulf states are not radicalized against the West. Likewise, a Jew like me can live in total peace with the Muslim shop owner on the next block. To say all Muslims - or even MOST Muslims - want to wipe us out is just false. (That said, I find Islam desperately in need of some sort of moderating influence, the way Christians had the Renaissance and Protestantism.)

I sympthize with Israeli goals and methods. Yet I see no contradiction in also mourning the loss of innocent life.

quote:

Originally posted by El Mamerro:
?

Not sure how exactly you reached that conclusion.

What conclusion, please?

I lived and worked in all of the Middle East countries for 14-years. This will never end in our lifetimes not our childrens. Sad but true

quote:

Originally posted by FirstRecon:


What conclusion, please?

The rewording of my statement. I just don't see the correlation, I guess.

You are definitely right about this not ending in our lifetimes or our children's.

quote:

Originally posted by El Mamerro:

quote:

Originally posted by FirstRecon:


What conclusion, please?

The rewording of my statement. I just don't see the correlation, I guess.

El Mamerro,
My apologies. And, I owe everyone on this forum an apology. I have regurgitated some very hateful words toward several members on the forum. My sentiments and beliefs notwithstanding; I have said some over-the-top diatribes in order to get my point across. I was wrong to be hateful in my speech. for that I truly apologize. In the future, I will tone down how I speak to members, but not what I believe. I have a better vocabulary, than I have been using, to state my point.

After all, this is a cigar forum. I need to relax a bit, have good stogie, and communicate pleasantly. (if, in fact, Admin doesn't kick me off first).

Again, sorry and I look forward to being a more pleasant to listen to member.

You are definitely right about this not ending in our lifetimes or our children's.

I get your drift. Your anger is understandable. However, 8 Canadians died in the bombings, and a host from non-Muslim countrys, and a lot of children too. I'm not sure they qualify as Hezbollah supporters

- Acceptable losses. It's called war for a reason. Too many people today forget what war is actually about and instead replace it with what they think it should be like. Do you think WW2 could have been won without acceptable losses? This statement reeks of leftist bleeding-heart BS.

Turkey as a strong tradition of secularism and democracy as state policy.

- Care to go back and look at the outcry from the European community as a whole when Turkey's potential membership into the EU was going to be voted on? Do you even recall the major changes and criticisms for lack of going far enough with the changes at the time? Lip service does not count as tradition.

That's like saying non-Muslims as a whole want Muslims to be killed. It is silly...

- How many times do these people celebrate and have a joyous gathering when homocide bombers strike? How often do they rally in support of slain TERRORISTS? Perception becomes reality when no one does anything to change it. Up until the Hezbollah kidnappings, no one in the Arab world has done anything of substance to refute this.

That shows a slight lack of understanding of the history of Arab nations and Muslim civilization. A very complex question that has nothing to do with balls. You surely know Arabs had the knowledge of complex mathematics and astronomy while we where still wallowing in the mud and ignorance of the Dark Ages. You write in Arab yourself everytime you write down a number...

- Has absolutely nothing to do with today's Islamic society in the Middle East. The majority today live in poverty, have little education, even less oppurtunity, and practically no rights if they are female. Yet they will do nothing to effect the regime change necessary to bring about changes to their plight. America had its Revolution, Civil War, and we vote for change today. Americans have shed their blood to right what they perceived as wrongs. Most Muslims today, in the Middle East, sit on their ass and cry Allah help us. They onlt shed their blood when it comes time to murder non-Muslims, unless they live in Iraq. A long since deceased family member of mine was an Attorney General of the United States. Does that make me qualified to be one as well? Nope. Past accomplishments by a select few within a group have no bearing on the current attitude of the populace as a whole. Let them fight and die to change their own plights instead of fighting and dieing to impose their beliefs on us. Until they do that, I'll be waving good-bye, watching them die, all the while enjoying my freedoms by smoking a fine cigar and drinking a fine wine or bourbon with it.

FirstRecon, no worries, man. I understand where you're coming from and I'd have to say that in a way you're more than entitled to express yourself
whichever way you deem most appropiate.

PFSGoldenEagle, first of all, let me say it was a pleasure to read such an articulate and compassionate argumentation. I must admit you make your point quite eloquently.
Of course, I could start a long argument on each point (for example, that the 25 members of the UE agreed unanimously (no small feat) to open negociations with Turkey for it's adhesion while recignozing there was still progress to be made). But it's futile : you know as well as I do that there are good points on both sides of this argument. Alot have already been made anyway.
What I want to say is this : you show us very vividly one side of the medal, the side you see. And, those you call "bleeding heart liberals" (myself included), are equally guilty of the same sin.
So can we agree that there are two sides to this and that there is no ABSOLUTE way of analysing the situation ?
I would even add that we ALL will have a role to play in the aftermath of all this.

Flashman, with all respect - and I mean it, your posts are excellent and thought provoking - ultimately, ambivalence does not solve the problem.

There comes a time when hard decisions must be made and debating must stop. For GoldenEagle and me - with many personal caveats to GoldenEagle's position - we come down on one side. Perhaps you come down on the other.

As I stated before, loss of civilian life is sad and tragic, but it does not render Israel's actions immoral per se. We must ask ourselves, what options does Israel have? There is a hostile army on its northern border that terrorizes Israeli citizens and kidnaps its soldiers. With what should Israel respond?

They cannot talk their way out of this through diplomacy and UN resolutions. They cannot send in the police to arrest the thousands of armed and hostile Hizbullah agents. They cannot, clever as the Israelis are, invent a bomb that will kill only bad guys and not children.

Let us remember a crucial point: The deaths of these civilians, to the extent they are not taking up arms against Israel's just cause (in my opinion) are on the shoulders of Hizbullah, not the IDF.

(By the way, everyone, I'm very pleased with the way this thread has remained civil and respectful. This community can't seem to manage a civil discussion on humidor beads, much less politics.)

quote:

Originally posted by Scottological:

(By the way, everyone, I'm very pleased with the way this thread has remained civil and respectful. This community can't seem to manage a civil discussion on humidor beads, much less politics.)

Scotto,

I'm afraid I'm one of those that has had to reign in my vehement spattering of hurtful words. It's been a personal problem I have. I do believe I have it under control now.

I agree with your latest post. No offense, Flashman; there does come a time when all the diplomacy in the world will not stop an evil thing from happening. The Israelis are doing what they must. If Israel waits for the UN, et. al., to make a difference, it will be too late.

I think I mentioned it on a post here before, but it's worth repeating. I am not an American that receives my news only from one of many of our liberal or conservative TV stations, magazine, or newspaper. I research through the blessed Internet also. Having lived and worked in the Middle East for 14-years, I know, without a personal doubt, that Israel has been as restrained as it can be.

Attacked from within, from the north, from the south, from the east, and now even her ships in the ocean are under attack. What else can Israel do? Wait for all the diplomatic entities to "talk" some more? I don't think so. That would be playing into the hands of Iran, Syria, Hezballah and Hammas (oops, that was redundant). They have a reason for Israel to wait ... this gives them more time to continue slamming incoming into Israel. Israel is right to fight (that rhymes).

No war ever has stopped to wait for the innocent to cross the street or get out of harms way. This war is no different. That's whay it is called war. And, I beleive a rightful defense: pre-emptive.

From Pat Buchanan:

quote:

"Let it be said: Israel has a right to defend herself, a right to counter-attack against Hezbollah and Hamas, a right to clean out bases from which Katyusha or Qassam rockets are being fired and a right to occupy land from which attacks are mounted on her people.

But what Israel is doing is imposing deliberate suffering on civilians, collective punishment on innocent people, to force them to do something they are powerless to do: disarm the gunmen among them. Such a policy violates international law and comports neither with our values nor our interests. It is un-American and un-Christian."

Full article

Agreed Flash. I won't back down from a good debate, but I won't beat a dead horse either. It was fun though to exchange ideas without the usual flamefest that happens here from time to time.

As far as Buchanan calling the Lebanese people "innocent", that is a matter that is wide open for debate. These same "innocent" people vote for Hezbollah candidates in political elections which is the same as putting their stamp of approval on the terrorist acts that Hezbollah carries out. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to empower terrorists to act, then you should be willing to accept the consequences that come from their actions as well.

quote:

Originally posted by PFSGoldenEagle:
Agreed Flash. I won't back down from a good debate, but I won't beat a dead horse either. It was fun though to exchange ideas without the usual flamefest that happens here from time to time.

As far as Buchanan calling the Lebanese people "innocent", that is a matter that is wide open for debate. These same "innocent" people vote for Hezbollah candidates in political elections which is the same as putting their stamp of approval on the terrorist acts that Hezbollah carries out. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. If you are going to empower terrorists to act, then you should be willing to accept the consequences that come from their actions as well.

P.S. I did not call anyone a bleeding-heart liberal. I only said an argument reeked of being a bleeding-heart liberal stance. Not the same as calling the whole of a person a bleeding-heart liberal. I used the term against an argument, not a person. A position on one issue does not define a person's entire spectrum of beliefs.

LOL, hit reply when I meant to edit. Oh well, must be the proverbial blue moon.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottological:
Flashman, with all respect - and I mean it, your posts are excellent and thought provoking - ultimately, ambivalence does not solve the problem.

There comes a time when hard decisions must be made and debating must stop. For GoldenEagle and me - with many personal caveats to GoldenEagle's position - we come down on one side. Perhaps you come down on the other.

As I stated before, loss of civilian life is sad and tragic, but it does not render Israel's actions immoral per se. We must ask ourselves, what options does Israel have? There is a hostile army on its northern border that terrorizes Israeli citizens and kidnaps its soldiers. With what should Israel respond?

They cannot talk their way out of this through diplomacy and UN resolutions. They cannot send in the police to arrest the thousands of armed and hostile Hizbullah agents. They cannot, clever as the Israelis are, invent a bomb that will kill only bad guys and not children.

Let us remember a crucial point: The deaths of these civilians, to the extent they are not taking up arms against Israel's just cause (in my opinion) are on the shoulders of Hizbullah, not the IDF.

(By the way, everyone, I'm very pleased with the way this thread has remained civil and respectful. This community can't seem to manage a civil discussion on humidor beads, much less politics.)

I truly wish I could afford the moral comfort of being inequivoqual about my support of Israel (remeber I stated initially that I believe they are justified in their action) but I can't. I cannot help to be ambivalent about this. For many reasons, most already stated.
If the situation is to improve, it's going to take a lot more than trying to remove the other race (or the other whatever) from the face of the planet alltogether.
Now, I don't know about you, but - without being overly naïve - I believe such things exist as faith, hope and love, even in the dire desolation of war, even under the ruble that hide the bodies of bonded families, even amongst the worst of ennemies. We can see examples of it everyday if we look hard enough.
War calls for men of war ; peace calls for men of peace. And they are there, on both sides.
War is human and human we are all, but humanity we must try to rise above, especially in situations like these.

Previous post is for PFSGoldenEagle too. No offense taken. And, don't worry, the horse is still breathing.

quote:

Originally posted by El Mamerro:

quote:

Originally posted by FirstRecon:


What conclusion, please?

The rewording of my statement. I just don't see the correlation, I guess.

I re-worded the sentence from a previous, useless on my part, "free speech" thread that I was vehemently arguing into the ground.
I understand your being perplexed. I placed the re-word into the wrong quote by you. Please forget the cunundrum as it was only a useless phrase that I should have not posted.