+1

I really love the taste thread, no really lol. Because there is truth to it. This one too. But there is one common denominator in both: unabashed arrogance. Excuse me for being skeptical but this type comes around about every two months and it never ends well. He got off on the wrong foot and is not doing a very good job arguing his point here.

quote:

Originally posted by ImTripN2:

quote:

Originally posted by ubiquito:
Man some of you guys just leave me shaking my head

Thank you Ole! I have enjoyed reading your points of view.

This guy has DECADES of experience with cuban cigars and is obviously well versed in the industry and has provided some of the best and in depth posts I've seen an a while.

You know him?

I would support a fund to create a bronze bust of Ole's head. This can be the start of a movement to commemorate Ole's contribution to the revitalization of the Cuban cigar industry.

To start this process Ole, we will need a silicon cast of your head. Please fill a bucket with silicon and stick your head in it. After the silicon sets, get one of your friends to cut away the silicon into 2 equal halves.

I know some people who know some people who know how to create head busts using the lost wax bronze technique.

This is my way of thanking Ole and I am sure this will be the beginning of a movement to get OLe permanently on the steps of the Cuban capitol building. Right where he belongs, next to the Marx brothers.

quote:

Originally posted by JB-07:

quote:

Originally posted by ImTripN2:

quote:

Originally posted by ubiquito:
Man some of you guys just leave me shaking my head

Thank you Ole! I have enjoyed reading your points of view.

This guy has DECADES of experience with cuban cigars and is obviously well versed in the industry and has provided some of the best and in depth posts I've seen an a while.

You know him?

Of course not. But you dont have to know someone personally to get a sense of what they are about after reading some of their posts. Right or wrong, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I just re read the entire thread, and it seems Ole has answered and replied to all your questions politely, yet you have called him arrogant, rude, a braggart and insulted his command of english, even tho it is not his native language. I haven't seen him respond rudely to you once. You have been here long enough to know that this place is just chock full of poseurs, so called experts, and just plain small minded jerks. Is Ole a fraud? Maybe, but he has posted some great info IMHO and has not once responded in kind to your barbs. So whatever dude, life is too short to argue over inconsequential schit. I'm done. The last word is yours.

quote:

called him arrogant, rude, a braggart and insulted his command of english

Go back to the other thread and read his conversation with shlomo if you care. It sounds like all you care about is Ole assumed expertise on cigars of the 90s and their collective spiceyness as compared to today's.

And his English is not good and has obviously created a language barrier. Certainly one of the reasons he comes off as FOS.

I consider none of this argument.

I am certainly not jumping on any bandwagons here and I may not agree with every single thing that Ole says, but I do believe in everyone's right to an opinion and enjoy the interesting and educational debates that can arise from these differing points of view.

Some of the negative posts directed toward Ole in this thread are more "unabashadly arrogant" and unnecessary than anything that I have seen come from him.

quote:

Originally posted by Ole:

quote:

Originally posted by JB-07:

So your reason for this was to show people how they have bad taste? Or point out that they are unable to have the cigars from the past? Sorry don't get it. Like I said, that's a bad example.

You guys don't ask questions.

Revisiting..

My sole direct question in this thread was answered by a list of cigars that you have preferred in the past and may no longer. It is difficult for me to agree on that for two reasons, I haven't smoked any pre-millenium cigars(so I'll have to take your word for it, and I do), and obviously tastes differ greatly(which you made pretty clear in another thread). To make it clear, I am not discounting your opinion in any way, assuming you are not FOS .

One thing that you said that I will bring to light, is the mentioning of your definition of the word spicy. It has two meanings to me, one pepper, the other, spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, or clove.

In my experience with CCs I am let down with some of them when it comes to strength(referring to the black pepper spice, not nicotine). I usually stick to certain cigars that I prefer, and they are usually on the stronger side of the spectrum in the CC line. I have delved into the lighter bodied cigars as well. For example, I have been underwhelmed by the majority of Hoyos, but then again there is a time and place for that profile. I have also had one box of Hoyo Churchills that were not underwhelming, and were actually more full flavored. Not spicy in terms of pepper, but more in line with leather and cocoa; less sweet wood/nuts/tobacco that I usually get from a Hoyo. One general thing I can take away from CCs is that while they are consistent within marcas in terms of base flavors and aromas, they still can vary quite a bit from box to box in terms of construction and flavor. Do you take into account the inconsistency? I assume you experience something similar.

More to the point, I am looking for a more exact definition of spice. Which spices? Lemon zest, ginger, walnut, vanilla would be considered spices, not in the culinary sense of the word, but in terms of describing a flavor profile of a cigar. But those tastes/aromas may be prevalent in a light bodied cigar. Would you consider this particular cigar to lack spice? By spice do you mean complexity?

quote:

Originally posted by Ole:
With Fidel's ambition in the 90's to double the cigar production, we lost the spicy character of the cuban cigar leaves.

Do we agree on these explanations?
1. Introduction of leaves from the new regions (Vuelta Arriba)
2. Key plantations like El Corojo got exhausted
3. Introduction of new tobacco plants resistant against disease. (If new seeds like the Habanos 2000 are derived from cigarette tobacco, shouldn't a change in taste be expected?)

Then. Which of these explanations is the most likely?

To get specific conclusions I think it is necessary to analyze each cigar individually.
-It is not sufficient to talk about individual brands (like Montecristo).
-It is not sufficient to analyze a specific vitola, i.e. Montecristo no. 4.
-It is not sufficient to analyze a Montecristo no. 4 in a specific year because the leaves to make 20 million cigars are made “all over Cuba”.

You have to look at which seeds are used now and then for each individual cigar. Further, you would have to analyze the origin of each individual leaf in each cigar to make the proper conclusions!

Anyone these days able to conclude "this Limited Edition is a ....?

Last to first:

You can't judge an Edicion Limitada cigar based on the brand...they have to be judged against each other. The "brands" they assign are really for marketing because they don't really capture the vein of what a particular brand for which the flavor or type of cigar is known (although I think that they tried to grasp some desired aspect of a particular brand as a basis for the EL lines...). So, you can't say "this EL is..."

As demand soared in the mid-1990's, production in Cuba didn't respond, and when they did, it was too late and the production quotas quadrupled in a short period of time. Problem is...they had the same quantities of tobacco, which meant that, until production of materials increased, the industry was using product that was otherwise being rejected for one reason or another, and the resulting quality of the tobacco took a hit in the late-1990's/early-2000's. Not only that, less experienced rollers were being brought on line to produce cigars that were formerly reserved for more experienced rollers, and so there were construction problems.

The industry also experimented with hybrid tobacco in order to resist mold and infestation. As a matter of clarification, there is no "El Corojo" plantation. "Corojo" is a variety of tobacco leaf that is very delicate, difficult to harvest, and labor intensive, and it was abandoned as a crop (more or less) in about 2001 in favor of other crops and hybrids. So, no such thing as the El Corojo Plantation.

Yes, the different hybrids resulted in thicker and broader leaves that affected the character of the cigars during this time. However, by 2003, the engineering of a great hybrid tobacco leaf was coming into its own, and the rollers were getting batter, so even though there might have been a bit of a dip in quality and production in the late-1990's and early-2000's, Cuba has definitely gotten it together over the years.

If you like the "spicy" character of Cuban cigars, then that's your individual taste. But as one poster said, and quoting Trevino, things always were better than they are now...and in a few years, we'll look back and say how great the cigars were from 2005 - 2010, just as we did in 2005, talking about the cigars of the early 1990's, and on and on goes that slippery slope.

It IS significant to talk about brands, even though they're not all made in the same factory...kind of like an automobile that might be assembled in Kentucky or Montana...different place, but made with the same parts and designs and the same assembly instructions.

I think you're over-generalizing, and even more disturbing is the dogma. Your conclusions could have been the subject of the same discussion decades ago.

Then again - what do I know?

You asked for questions Ole. Do you have answers?

Whether or not Ole is an arrogant dingus, why is he being criticised for his English? There are many posters here for whom English is not their first language, and I give them full points for their efforts.

quote:

why is he being criticised for his English?

He isn't.

I see RyJ is on moderated status.

quote:

Originally posted by ryj7x47:
..So, no such thing as the El Corojo Plantation..

Not to nitpick but wasn't El Corojo named after the plantation where it was developed?
I've never seen it (the plantation that is) so I've no direct evidence that it exists or ever existed. I'll ask though.

quote:

Originally posted by AnRyan:

quote:

Originally posted by ryj7x47:
..So, no such thing as the El Corojo Plantation..

Not to nitpick but wasn't El Corojo named after the plantation where it was developed?
I've never seen it (the plantation that is) so I've no direct evidence that it exists or ever existed. I'll ask though.

Ask no further:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com...eatures/show/id/7689

Originally named after a palm tree growing on the property, El Corojo is located a few miles from the town of San Luis y Martinez in the heart of the Vuelta Abajo. Today it encompasses approximately 395 acres; about 600 people work on the property, doing everything from cultivating the soil to maintaining the tobacco barns.

http://www.cigaraficionado.com...eatures/show/id/7051

First developed in the 1930s at the El Corojo plantation outside San Juan y Martinez, Cuba, El Corojo had served as the wrapper for some of the greatest cigars ever made on the island ...

http://www.doncigarro.com/toba...Types%20of%20Tobacco

Named after the famous El Corojo Vega Plantation where it’s seeds were developed ...

Been there, seen it.

Thanks to you guys bringing the discussion back on track.

Last month I had the intention of visiting El Corojo. However, I had problems finding it, and decided to spend my time in plantations up and running. May be not so strange the younger farmers didn't know its location, it has been 15 years now since El Corojo was shut down.

quote:

Originally posted by JB-07:
[My sole direct question in this thread was answered by a list of cigars that you have preferred in the past

JB07, may you please ask your specific question again, sorry I did not catch the essence of your question.

Regarding the terms spice, aroma, taste and flavour you are right, my level of english is limiting my ability to express myself. These discussions we frequently have- in norwegian... I have to look up my dictionary, may be I will be able to come back tonight in the (a little arrogant) thread "Defining good taste".

Some things are individual. Some people prefer cinnamon to curry. However, the experienced palate is more demanding than the palate of a child. We want complexity, harmony/balance, purity. Sometimes we enjoy the acquired taste; the baby doesn't like coffee or olives.

Strength is another issue (and personal). Cigars may be strong without complexity. The old RJ Cedros no. 3 was mild and at the same time complex. Or should I say spicy? Tasty? Full flavour, like the cubans like to describe their cigars? Aromatic? I had two puffs of a Macanudo last night. What a boring cigar! No complexity, very one-dimentional. I have to admit, when I call present Partagas D4 boring, I have to watch my language because all cubans are at a much higher level in terms of complexity. Still, I miss the flavours of present PSD4's.

Black pepper has got nothing to do with strength. The AMOUNT of peppar has got to do with strength.
I have to study my dictionary tonight!


ps.
assuming you are not FOS .
Meaning?

Everytime i scroll past this thread I think of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAAbbuEpnw

quote:

Originally posted by zero_vertical:
Everytime i scroll past this thread I think of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAAbbuEpnw

Whenever I go to a Stones concert, I put on my iPhone ear buds and listen to Lady Gaga.

quote:

Originally posted by JB-07:
One thing that you said that I will bring to light, is the mentioning of your definition of the word spicy. It has two meanings to me, one pepper, the other, spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, or clove.

By spice do you mean complexity?

You are probably not the only person asking these questions. I found some definitions in accordance with my own understanding:
http://forums.cigaraficionado....087082042#3087082042

I will take a look at your other questions/views another day.

quote:

Black pepper has got nothing to do with strength. The AMOUNT of peppar has got to do with strength.

Mind blowing

quote:

Originally posted by chameri:
..El Corojo..
Been there, seen it.

Is it still a working plantation? How long ago were you there?