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quote:
Originally posted by JB-07:
quote:
Originally posted by ImTripN2:
quote:
Originally posted by ubiquito:
Man some of you guys just leave me shaking my head Confused

Thank you Ole! I have enjoyed reading your points of view.


This guy has DECADES of experience with cuban cigars and is obviously well versed in the industry and has provided some of the best and in depth posts I've seen an a while.


You know him?


Of course not. But you dont have to know someone personally to get a sense of what they are about after reading some of their posts. Right or wrong, we are all entitled to our opinions.

I just re read the entire thread, and it seems Ole has answered and replied to all your questions politely, yet you have called him arrogant, rude, a braggart and insulted his command of english, even tho it is not his native language. I haven't seen him respond rudely to you once. You have been here long enough to know that this place is just chock full of poseurs, so called experts, and just plain small minded jerks. Is Ole a fraud? Maybe, but he has posted some great info IMHO and has not once responded in kind to your barbs. So whatever dude, life is too short to argue over inconsequential schit. I'm done. The last word is yours.


I don't know half of you half as well as I should like,
and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve. ~ B Baggins
 
Posts: 1926 | Registered: June 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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called him arrogant, rude, a braggart and insulted his command of english


Go back to the other thread and read his conversation with shlomo if you care. It sounds like all you care about is Ole assumed expertise on cigars of the 90s and their collective spiceyness as compared to today's.

And his English is not good and has obviously created a language barrier. Certainly one of the reasons he comes off as FOS.

I consider none of this argument.


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"The future is no place to place your better days"
 
Posts: 3475 | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am certainly not jumping on any bandwagons here and I may not agree with every single thing that Ole says, but I do believe in everyone's right to an opinion and enjoy the interesting and educational debates that can arise from these differing points of view.

Some of the negative posts directed toward Ole in this thread are more "unabashadly arrogant" and unnecessary than anything that I have seen come from him.
 
Posts: 27 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: December 03, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Ole:
quote:
Originally posted by JB-07:

So your reason for this was to show people how they have bad taste? Or point out that they are unable to have the cigars from the past? Sorry don't get it. Like I said, that's a bad example.




You guys don't ask questions.


Revisiting..

My sole direct question in this thread was answered by a list of cigars that you have preferred in the past and may no longer. It is difficult for me to agree on that for two reasons, I haven't smoked any pre-millenium cigars(so I'll have to take your word for it, and I do), and obviously tastes differ greatly(which you made pretty clear in another thread). To make it clear, I am not discounting your opinion in any way, assuming you are not FOS Wink.

One thing that you said that I will bring to light, is the mentioning of your definition of the word spicy. It has two meanings to me, one pepper, the other, spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, or clove.

In my experience with CCs I am let down with some of them when it comes to strength(referring to the black pepper spice, not nicotine). I usually stick to certain cigars that I prefer, and they are usually on the stronger side of the spectrum in the CC line. I have delved into the lighter bodied cigars as well. For example, I have been underwhelmed by the majority of Hoyos, but then again there is a time and place for that profile. I have also had one box of Hoyo Churchills that were not underwhelming, and were actually more full flavored. Not spicy in terms of pepper, but more in line with leather and cocoa; less sweet wood/nuts/tobacco that I usually get from a Hoyo. One general thing I can take away from CCs is that while they are consistent within marcas in terms of base flavors and aromas, they still can vary quite a bit from box to box in terms of construction and flavor. Do you take into account the inconsistency? I assume you experience something similar.

More to the point, I am looking for a more exact definition of spice. Which spices? Lemon zest, ginger, walnut, vanilla would be considered spices, not in the culinary sense of the word, but in terms of describing a flavor profile of a cigar. But those tastes/aromas may be prevalent in a light bodied cigar. Would you consider this particular cigar to lack spice? By spice do you mean complexity?


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Posts: 3475 | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Ole:
With Fidel's ambition in the 90's to double the cigar production, we lost the spicy character of the cuban cigar leaves.

Do we agree on these explanations?
1. Introduction of leaves from the new regions (Vuelta Arriba)
2. Key plantations like El Corojo got exhausted
3. Introduction of new tobacco plants resistant against disease. (If new seeds like the Habanos 2000 are derived from cigarette tobacco, shouldn't a change in taste be expected?)

Then. Which of these explanations is the most likely?

To get specific conclusions I think it is necessary to analyze each cigar individually.
-It is not sufficient to talk about individual brands (like Montecristo).
-It is not sufficient to analyze a specific vitola, i.e. Montecristo no. 4.
-It is not sufficient to analyze a Montecristo no. 4 in a specific year because the leaves to make 20 million cigars are made “all over Cuba”.

You have to look at which seeds are used now and then for each individual cigar. Further, you would have to analyze the origin of each individual leaf in each cigar to make the proper conclusions!

Anyone these days able to conclude "this Limited Edition is a ....?


Last to first:

You can't judge an Edicion Limitada cigar based on the brand...they have to be judged against each other. The "brands" they assign are really for marketing because they don't really capture the vein of what a particular brand for which the flavor or type of cigar is known (although I think that they tried to grasp some desired aspect of a particular brand as a basis for the EL lines...). So, you can't say "this EL is..."

As demand soared in the mid-1990's, production in Cuba didn't respond, and when they did, it was too late and the production quotas quadrupled in a short period of time. Problem is...they had the same quantities of tobacco, which meant that, until production of materials increased, the industry was using product that was otherwise being rejected for one reason or another, and the resulting quality of the tobacco took a hit in the late-1990's/early-2000's. Not only that, less experienced rollers were being brought on line to produce cigars that were formerly reserved for more experienced rollers, and so there were construction problems.

The industry also experimented with hybrid tobacco in order to resist mold and infestation. As a matter of clarification, there is no "El Corojo" plantation. "Corojo" is a variety of tobacco leaf that is very delicate, difficult to harvest, and labor intensive, and it was abandoned as a crop (more or less) in about 2001 in favor of other crops and hybrids. So, no such thing as the El Corojo Plantation.

Yes, the different hybrids resulted in thicker and broader leaves that affected the character of the cigars during this time. However, by 2003, the engineering of a great hybrid tobacco leaf was coming into its own, and the rollers were getting batter, so even though there might have been a bit of a dip in quality and production in the late-1990's and early-2000's, Cuba has definitely gotten it together over the years.

If you like the "spicy" character of Cuban cigars, then that's your individual taste. But as one poster said, and quoting Trevino, things always were better than they are now...and in a few years, we'll look back and say how great the cigars were from 2005 - 2010, just as we did in 2005, talking about the cigars of the early 1990's, and on and on goes that slippery slope.

It IS significant to talk about brands, even though they're not all made in the same factory...kind of like an automobile that might be assembled in Kentucky or Montana...different place, but made with the same parts and designs and the same assembly instructions.

I think you're over-generalizing, and even more disturbing is the dogma. Your conclusions could have been the subject of the same discussion decades ago.

Then again - what do I know?


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Santa Cabilla...patron saint of Quericæstan. VIVE COULTER (not Ann)! VIVE CPD! Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go...(Oscar Wilde)
 
Posts: 10979 | Location: Avenida de las Nalgas, Quericæstan | Registered: May 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You asked for questions Ole. Do you have answers?


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Posts: 3475 | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Whether or not Ole is an arrogant dingus, why is he being criticised for his English? There are many posters here for whom English is not their first language, and I give them full points for their efforts.
 
Posts: 1523 | Location: London, United Kingdom | Registered: August 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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why is he being criticised for his English?



He isn't.


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Posts: 3475 | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I see RyJ is on moderated status.


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Posts: 3475 | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by ryj7x47:
..So, no such thing as the El Corojo Plantation..


Not to nitpick but wasn't El Corojo named after the plantation where it was developed?
I've never seen it (the plantation that is) so I've no direct evidence that it exists or ever existed. I'll ask though.



"If it was raining soup, the Irish would go out with forks."
Brendan Behan
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: Dublin | Registered: November 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by AnRyan:
quote:
Originally posted by ryj7x47:
..So, no such thing as the El Corojo Plantation..


Not to nitpick but wasn't El Corojo named after the plantation where it was developed?
I've never seen it (the plantation that is) so I've no direct evidence that it exists or ever existed. I'll ask though.


Ask no further:

http://www.cigaraficionado.com...eatures/show/id/7689

Originally named after a palm tree growing on the property, El Corojo is located a few miles from the town of San Luis y Martinez in the heart of the Vuelta Abajo. Today it encompasses approximately 395 acres; about 600 people work on the property, doing everything from cultivating the soil to maintaining the tobacco barns.

http://www.cigaraficionado.com...eatures/show/id/7051

First developed in the 1930s at the El Corojo plantation outside San Juan y Martinez, Cuba, El Corojo had served as the wrapper for some of the greatest cigars ever made on the island ...

http://www.doncigarro.com/toba...Types%20of%20Tobacco

Named after the famous El Corojo Vega Plantation where it’s seeds were developed ...

Been there, seen it.


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The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. Gloria Steinem
 
Posts: 136 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks to you guys bringing the discussion back on track.

Last month I had the intention of visiting El Corojo. However, I had problems finding it, and decided to spend my time in plantations up and running. May be not so strange the younger farmers didn't know its location, it has been 15 years now since El Corojo was shut down.

quote:
Originally posted by JB-07:
[My sole direct question in this thread was answered by a list of cigars that you have preferred in the past


JB07, may you please ask your specific question again, sorry I did not catch the essence of your question.

Regarding the terms spice, aroma, taste and flavour you are right, my level of english is limiting my ability to express myself. These discussions we frequently have- in norwegian... I have to look up my dictionary, may be I will be able to come back tonight in the (a little arrogant) thread "Defining good taste".

Some things are individual. Some people prefer cinnamon to curry. However, the experienced palate is more demanding than the palate of a child. We want complexity, harmony/balance, purity. Sometimes we enjoy the acquired taste; the baby doesn't like coffee or olives.

Strength is another issue (and personal). Cigars may be strong without complexity. The old RJ Cedros no. 3 was mild and at the same time complex. Or should I say spicy? Tasty? Full flavour, like the cubans like to describe their cigars? Aromatic? I had two puffs of a Macanudo last night. What a boring cigar! No complexity, very one-dimentional. I have to admit, when I call present Partagas D4 boring, I have to watch my language because all cubans are at a much higher level in terms of complexity. Still, I miss the flavours of present PSD4's.

Black pepper has got nothing to do with strength. The AMOUNT of peppar has got to do with strength.
I have to study my dictionary tonight!


ps.
assuming you are not FOS Wink.
Meaning?
 
Posts: 471 | Location: Oslo | Registered: November 05, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Everytime i scroll past this thread I think of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYAAbbuEpnw


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Here's to dear old Boston, the city of beans and cod;
Where the Lowells talk only to Cabots, and the Cabots talk only to God.
 
Posts: 650 | Location: The Hub | Registered: April 18, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:

Originally posted by JB-07:
One thing that you said that I will bring to light, is the mentioning of your definition of the word spicy. It has two meanings to me, one pepper, the other, spices such as cinnamon, nutmeg, or clove.

By spice do you mean complexity?

You are probably not the only person asking these questions. I found some definitions in accordance with my own understanding:
http://forums.cigaraficionado....087082042#3087082042

I will take a look at your other questions/views another day.
 
Posts: 471 | Location: Oslo | Registered: November 05, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Black pepper has got nothing to do with strength. The AMOUNT of peppar has got to do with strength.


Mind blowing


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Posts: 3475 | Registered: December 18, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by chameri:
..El Corojo..
Been there, seen it.


Is it still a working plantation? How long ago were you there?



"If it was raining soup, the Irish would go out with forks."
Brendan Behan
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: Dublin | Registered: November 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by chameri:

ARyan, I linked that interesting CA article for you to read all details you need to know.



Thanks for that, I had seen the article, but I knew it was older. I was just wondering if you had seen the farm more recently.
You going for the festival?



"If it was raining soup, the Irish would go out with forks."
Brendan Behan
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: Dublin | Registered: November 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, planning to attend but on a very tight schedule.
Last in 2005, Ryan.


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The truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. Gloria Steinem
 
Posts: 136 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by chameri:
Yes, planning to attend but on a very tight schedule.
Last in 2005, Ryan.


I know the way it goes. I get in next Thursday for 11 days, I'm not going to any of the official events this year but some good stuff organised.



"If it was raining soup, the Irish would go out with forks."
Brendan Behan
 
Posts: 2591 | Location: Dublin | Registered: November 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I picked up these interesting comments (dated august) from people who actually smoked the cigars they are debating.

On your way to Havana AnRyan & chameri, I know experienced travellers won't be offended by three restaurant recommendations:
The best food: Dona Eutemia
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Res...mia-Havana_Cuba.html
Best value: Jardin del Oriente
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Res...el_Oriente-Cuba.html
For a quiet nice lunch you may try Bodeson Onda:
http://www.tripadvisor.com/Res...deson_Onda-Cuba.html


quote:
Originally posted by Extensioncord:
quote:
Originally posted by Orion:
Cuba does not have a "limited inventory" of tobacco. They have stockpiles to the point that regular production cigars are being rolled with 2yr aged wrappers when they are normally rolled with 1yr. Cigars I bought back in 2010 that came with light tan Colorado wrappers are now almost Maduro in color.


Small total quantity, small variety compared with the TOTAL amount grown by DR, Nicaragua, Honduras, US, Peru, Ecuador, Brazil and other tobacco growing nations combined.

quote:
Originally posted by Orion:
Also, the tobacco used back before the mid 90's was very different than today because they used criollo tobacco. It is not used anymore because they had an outbreak of disease that decimated the tobacco crops, so Habanos scrapped its use, even though those who know their Cuban cigars say it produced superior tobacco compared to more disease resistant plants they use now.


OK, so we agree that the older, more disease prone tobacco was better? So what's the argument?

quote:
Originally posted by Orion:
I completely disagree with construction not being "that great lately." Of the boxes I have bought since 2010 I have had 1 plugged cigar. My complaint on construction would be that some are under filled compared to older rolls. But I would rather have an under filled cigar (see BHK 52 Frown ) vs a plugged cigar any day of the week. Also, I take exception with your assertion that Cuba could make the best cigars in the world again . . . when did they stop making the best cigars in the world? The best NC cigar I have smoked (Opus X Perfecxion X aged 3-4 years) was as good as a very good Upmann Mag50 or No. 2. A very good cigar, but not THE best in the world. On the other hand, have you smoked a really good Behike 52, Cohiba Robusto, Bolivar Royal Corona, Montecristo Grand Edmundo, Quai D'Orsay Corona, Ramon Allones Celestiales Finos etc? Every one of these cigars, when great, has blown away that Opus.


I can only speak for what I've experienced personally in the past few years -- and what I've seen is beautiful consistency from cigar makers like DPG.

quote:
Originally posted by Orion:
Cuban cigars have complexity of flavors, texture, buttery smoothness and are just down right interesting to smoke compared to Non-Cubans. After smoking so many great Habanos I find Non-Cuban cigars boring to the point of tears. Why do they all have to have double, triple ligero, processed and treated wrappers and receive no box dating (aside from Padron)? I will tell you why because Cubans aren't available in America, so NC companies need their product to be very different to move the American smoker to their product and hold it there when the embargo is eventually lifted. Bigger, better, stronger, darker etc is what they want the American cigar smoker to gravitate to and they have succeeded.


Cuban cigars "at their best" are more complex, I agree. Habanos simply does not operate with the same resources as a free market company.

If you could grow microchips in the ground, for example, and Cuba could grow the best, do you really think they could create an iPad with one? No, you'd end up with a great microchip in something that looked like a Soviet-era squawk box.

However, as you may have noted, I am an avowed hater of gimmicks and non-Cuban cigar makers are the masters of offending my sensibilities with nonsense like triple ligero and neon boxes and the stuff you mentioned.

quote:
Originally posted by Orion:
But you know what? Who cares? If you love CAO, Padron, Illusione, LFD, My Father or any other NC brands and you enjoy them with other BOTL's while having a good time NC vs CC doesn't matter. I prefer CC's for my own reasons and my Dad enjoys Fuente, but we both love cigars and enjoy them together. Hopefully everyone knows the real issue and it's tobacco legislation like the type recently passed in Australia that should be our main concern. End of Rant Smile


There are flavors and textures and aromas that I can only get in non-Cuban cigars and vice versa. I wouldn't want to live without Padron any more than I would want to live without Partagas.

Your response is certainly appreciated but there is one final thought I would ask you to consider:

Perhaps you simply have less experience appreciating non-Cuban cigars.

French wine connoisseurs dismissed California wine until...well, until they couldn't any longer. And then they rested on their (admittedly well deserved) laurels for years, while California got better and better and better.
 
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