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quote:
Originally posted by See Gar:
quote:
Originally posted by jayro75:
quote:
Originally posted by michaels:
Anyone who bids on singles with or without the boxes is looking for trouble...Amazes me that a vendor would open his reputation up for questions by selling these...too much greed by some


His reputation has been open for questions for quite a long time now. I wouldn't buy a stick of chewing gum from him.


Do I take it then that you've never dealt with or met him, but are quite happy to rubbish his reputation anonymously?

There are, quite probably, people out there who feel they have been done over by Mitchell. But I haven't actually met any, much as I'd like to. What I do see is a lot of anonymous posters with mouths like closed purses (I imagine) re-posting what they've heard from other anonymous posters. It seems shoddy, mean-spirited and a poor substitute for social interaction.


Greg is absolutely right. Without commenting on the lots presently on auction, the vintage cigar market is a dangerous game for newbies. Almost all of it is too good to be true. So it is of utmost importance to trust your vendor. If you feel like Mitchell has served you well and that he is a reliable source of vintage cigars for you, there is no reason for you to credit the reports of other cigar smokers who have had or relayed their negative experiences.

But as for your comment about the stories floating around, I always think about the old Jewish story from turn of the century Europe about a lawyer who called a Rabbi knows as the Chafetz Chaim to testify as a character witness for his client on trial for espionage. When the judge asked the lawyer why the Chofetz Chaim was a person whose opinion of someone's character should be highly regarded, the lawyer responded as follows:

"Once, when the Chofetz Chaim was in Warsaw, he was approached by a man with a five ruble note in his hands, who claimed that he owed the Chofetz Chaim a ruble for a book he had once bought from him. The Chofetz Chaim refused the money, saying that he did not remember such a debt. After receiving this reply, the man changed his tune, this time claiming that he wanted to give a ruble as a donation. The Chofetz Chaim said he did not accept presents, but if he so wished, he could donate the money to the yeshivah in Radin.

The person agreed to do that, but when the Chofetz Chaim took out his wallet to give him change, he grabbed the wallet and ran away. The Chofetz Chaim began to run after him, shouting to him as he ran away that he could have the money and that he forgave him completely. Furthermore, he would not allow anyone to chase the thief.

The judge interrupted the lawyer saying, "My dear advocate, do you really believe that story?" "No, I don't, your Honor, I think it is a fable," answered the lawyer.

The judge asked, "If that is the case, why did you bring it as proof in your argument?" The lawyer answered, "Excuse me, your Honor, but can you explain to me why there are not such stories going around about you or me? Don't you think that the creation of such stories about a person testifies to his greatness?"

I would imagine that this lesson cuts both ways.
 
Posts: 119 | Registered: April 02, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of See Gar
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The first-hand experiences of BOTL/SOTLs, negative and positive, are very interesting. The others, not so much.

Very enjoyable story, ewipper.

quote:
Without commenting on the lots presently on auction, the vintage cigar market is a dangerous game for newbies. Almost all of it is too good to be true. So it is of utmost importance to trust your vendor.


Sorry, but I disagree with much of this. You should have a look at the lots on auction. Many high-end items, and the provenance can vary greatly, but there are many non-vintage cigars that sell for a reasonable amount. They aren't vintage, and the prices aren't too good to be true. In my (limited) experience, the reserve and selling prices in this range broadly reflect the condition of the lots. I can't really speak to most of the high end lots, they look crazy expensive in an illiquid market to me.

I'm not really sure what is expected from an auction of this type. A standardised commodity, everything a 100 point cigar in perfect condition that you can order via the internet? Certainly newbies should be careful. Trusting your vendor? I save trust for personal relationships. For vendors I verify, do my research, view where possible, buy by credit card and ensure I have a copy of the return policy. And listen to first-hand accounts from BOTL/SOTLs, of course.

Anyways, all the more reason to attend and experience it. Get dressed up, have a few cocktails, eat some canapés, view the lots, talk to cigar aficionados, smoke some excellent cigars, pore over the catalogue and try to resist bidding. Should be great fun.
 
Posts: 1523 | Location: London, United Kingdom | Registered: August 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ewipper:
quote:
Originally posted by See Gar:
quote:
Originally posted by jayro75:
quote:
Originally posted by michaels:
Anyone who bids on singles with or without the boxes is looking for trouble...Amazes me that a vendor would open his reputation up for questions by selling these...too much greed by some


His reputation has been open for questions for quite a long time now. I wouldn't buy a stick of chewing gum from him.


Do I take it then that you've never dealt with or met him, but are quite happy to rubbish his reputation anonymously?

There are, quite probably, people out there who feel they have been done over by Mitchell. But I haven't actually met any, much as I'd like to. What I do see is a lot of anonymous posters with mouths like closed purses (I imagine) re-posting what they've heard from other anonymous posters. It seems shoddy, mean-spirited and a poor substitute for social interaction.


Greg is absolutely right. Without commenting on the lots presently on auction, the vintage cigar market is a dangerous game for newbies. Almost all of it is too good to be true. So it is of utmost importance to trust your vendor. If you feel like Mitchell has served you well and that he is a reliable source of vintage cigars for you, there is no reason for you to credit the reports of other cigar smokers who have had or relayed their negative experiences.

But as for your comment about the stories floating around, I always think about the old Jewish story from turn of the century Europe about a lawyer who called a Rabbi knows as the Chafetz Chaim to testify as a character witness for his client on trial for espionage. When the judge asked the lawyer why the Chofetz Chaim was a person whose opinion of someone's character should be highly regarded, the lawyer responded as follows:

"Once, when the Chofetz Chaim was in Warsaw, he was approached by a man with a five ruble note in his hands, who claimed that he owed the Chofetz Chaim a ruble for a book he had once bought from him. The Chofetz Chaim refused the money, saying that he did not remember such a debt. After receiving this reply, the man changed his tune, this time claiming that he wanted to give a ruble as a donation. The Chofetz Chaim said he did not accept presents, but if he so wished, he could donate the money to the yeshivah in Radin.

The person agreed to do that, but when the Chofetz Chaim took out his wallet to give him change, he grabbed the wallet and ran away. The Chofetz Chaim began to run after him, shouting to him as he ran away that he could have the money and that he forgave him completely. Furthermore, he would not allow anyone to chase the thief.

The judge interrupted the lawyer saying, "My dear advocate, do you really believe that story?" "No, I don't, your Honor, I think it is a fable," answered the lawyer.

The judge asked, "If that is the case, why did you bring it as proof in your argument?" The lawyer answered, "Excuse me, your Honor, but can you explain to me why there are not such stories going around about you or me? Don't you think that the creation of such stories about a person testifies to his greatness?"

I would imagine that this lesson cuts both ways.
Great story....
 
Posts: 1747 | Location: new york | Registered: July 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by michaels:
quote:
Originally posted by See Gar:
quote:
Originally posted by jayro75:
quote:
Originally posted by michaels:
Anyone who bids on singles with or without the boxes is looking for trouble...Amazes me that a vendor would open his reputation up for questions by selling these...too much greed by some


His reputation has been open for questions for quite a long time now. I wouldn't buy a stick of chewing gum from him.


Do I take it then that you've never dealt with or met him, but are quite happy to rubbish his reputation anonymously?

There are, quite probably, people out there who feel they have been done over by Mitchell. But I haven't actually met any, much as I'd like to. What I do see is a lot of anonymous posters with mouths like closed purses (I imagine) re-posting what they've heard from other anonymous posters. It seems shoddy, mean-spirited and a poor substitute for social interaction.
Mitch knows exactly who i am...he confonted me on his remakes of Che's that were completely different from the originals..how he can actually sell Cabinetta singles is a testment tp his greed and disregard to his customers.


Forgot all about the Che's Michael. Nice humidor though. How about the PL Magnificos that he started selling well after all the originals had been sold-remember how he originally claimed they were from the first release??? When caught he blamed it upon his distributor. He is a scammer!!!!
 
Posts: 672 | Registered: August 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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SO NOW..who is going?
 
Posts: 1747 | Location: new york | Registered: July 06, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of See Gar
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quote:
Originally posted by michaels:
SO NOW..who is going?


Well, me, but I promise to stare at Mitchell dissaprovingly while I'm there.
 
Posts: 1523 | Location: London, United Kingdom | Registered: August 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Won't be able to make it finally, was planning to bid online but not sure anymore based on the previous comments.
 
Posts: 83 | Location: Blainville, QC | Registered: September 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
The problem is that not enough people have any extensive experience with vintage Dunhills or Davidoffs, and therefore have no point of reference guiding them. Essentially they won't know what they are supposed to be looking for, what the cigars are supposed to taste like or have any parameters for acceptable degrees of flavor/appearance from year to year, box to box. This of course, leaves many buyers highly susceptible to poorly stored samples or worse yet: fakes.



I don't think it matters. Most of the people attending will be collectors with no intention of smoking anything. From their perspective only possession and perceived value are significant. If you look at the lots many are cling film sealed to prevent scuffing to the boxes, how that might have effected the contents I've no idea, but I wouldn't to be a premium paying guinea-pig to find out.

I live on the outskirts of London but I won't be attending, nor will I be making any online bids. The guide prices are I think aimed at online suckers to get the bidding away at a higher level than might otherwise be expected. And as an observation from previous auctions .... online bidders seldom win.
 
Posts: 280 | Location: Westcliff | Registered: June 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by tippexx:
quote:
Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
The problem is that not enough people have any extensive experience with vintage Dunhills or Davidoffs, and therefore have no point of reference guiding them. Essentially they won't know what they are supposed to be looking for, what the cigars are supposed to taste like or have any parameters for acceptable degrees of flavor/appearance from year to year, box to box. This of course, leaves many buyers highly susceptible to poorly stored samples or worse yet: fakes.



I don't think it matters. Most of the people attending will be collectors with no intention of smoking anything. From their perspective only possession and perceived value are significant. If you look at the lots many are cling film sealed to prevent scuffing to the boxes, how that might have effected the contents I've no idea, but I wouldn't to be a premium paying guinea-pig to find out.

I live on the outskirts of London but I won't be attending, nor will I be making any online bids. The guide prices are I think aimed at online suckers to get the bidding away at a higher level than might otherwise be expected. And as an observation from previous auctions .... online bidders seldom win.


Shame you won't make it, tippexx. Would have been good to meet and have a couple of cigars.

I have to say, I didn't notice any cling film. Certainly the couple of lots I purchased weren't wrapped. I do notice that Ajay cling-films many of his vintage boxes, but he is meticulous about humidity, and checks his cigars carefully all the freaking time.

At the last auction, I didn't notice the proportion of online bidders, but Mrs. Gar kept notes on the selling prices of every single lot. The bulk of them sold for between the high and low estimates, but some sold for less, and many didn't make reserve. For those, I believe bidders were solicited after the auction for their best offers.

I think most BOTL/SOTLs agree that bidding on cigars without viewing them AND understanding what you are looking at is ill-advised.

But I do like a good party, and the devil has the best tunes, so they say.
 
Posts: 1523 | Location: London, United Kingdom | Registered: August 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I think most BOTL/SOTLs agree that bidding on cigars without viewing them AND understanding what you are looking at is ill-advised.

But I do like a good party, and the devil has the best tunes, so they say.


Yes, it can make for a good day out with the chance to meet some fellow BOTL so I certainly wouldn't try to put anyone off from attending.

But this year, things I can afford I don't want, and those I would covet I can't afford, so rather than make myself miserable .... I'll stay in the office!
 
Posts: 280 | Location: Westcliff | Registered: June 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
The bulk of them sold for between the high and low estimates, but some sold for less, and many didn't make reserve. For those, I believe bidders were solicited after the auction for their best offers.



I have heard that happens. But I've never been sought out myself .... guess I've not been a big enough bidder! Smile
 
Posts: 280 | Location: Westcliff | Registered: June 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
I think most BOTL/SOTLs agree that bidding on cigars without viewing them AND understanding what you are looking at is ill-advised.



Yes, online cigar auction catalogues are a bit like TV Cookery programmes where the viewer is expected to accept expert opinion, because TV viewers cannot use two of the primary senses with which to form a food judgement for themselves.

72 dpi picture and eyes only I'm afraid.
 
Posts: 280 | Location: Westcliff | Registered: June 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, Mrs. Gar and I had a great time.

The pre-auction event was held on Sunday at the cigar terrace at Ten Manchester Street. The editors have written about this in the CA website, so I won't bore you. It's a well-heated little terrace in a boutique hotel. No bar, its table service. Cocktails, cigars and Prosecco were served, and there was much socialising.

After visiting Turmeaus to view the lots I had noted, and getting the provenance and Mitchell's view on the condition (always interesting) I met Mrs. Gar at the auction.

They always have great cocktails at Boisdale, but they were hosting a tasting of two whiskies, a 14-year old rum-casked Balvenie, and an old Glenfiddich of some sort. The hospitality was very open-handed, as always, with the lovely waitresses refilling the glasses magically and our pockets getting stuffed with cigars. The cigars being distributed were a small Por Larranaga corona, a short Hoyo De Monterrey Robusto, a Punch pyramid RE, an El Rey Del Mundo Choix d'Epoque RE, a Ramon Allones short pyramid RE, and a couple others I can't recall. The food was terrific as well.

The auction was very interesting. Unlike the last auction I went to, this one was dominated by a buyer for a major sports figure who had decided that cigars were a good investment. Most of the best lots were hoovered up for above the reserve by this one bidder.

A couple of absent commission bidders got most of the remaining decent lots, often for above reserve.

I got my paddle up a couple times, but was quickly priced out of the game. Didn't buy a thing.

We were pretty dry after around 2 1/2 hours of bidding, so back to the terrace to gossip, have a couple more whiskies and another cigar.

I'll probably make this a regular thing. If any BOTL/SOTLs are in the neighbourhood next year, let me know.
 
Posts: 1523 | Location: London, United Kingdom | Registered: August 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry u didnt get a box or 2.
Sucks when the big boys are buying
everything in site. Prolly was Beckham.
 
Posts: 2135 | Location: USA | Registered: October 09, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Sorry to hear you were outbid. Ajay will be pleased to hear that Your auction money might be headed his way. I hope to be released on my own recognizance in time for the H&F Summer Cigar Party. Agnes may allow me to accompany her to Ireland for the holidays if I can get off work. Otherwise, I shall remain in the frozen north for the time being.


"There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't.”
- Unknown
 
Posts: 600 | Location: Frostbite Falls | Registered: March 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you happen to get to Ireland drop me a line might be able to meet up for a smoke


Disabled toilets ironically the only toilets big enough to run around in
 
Posts: 1002 | Location: Ireland | Registered: October 27, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Vinnyc:
If you happen to get to Ireland drop me a line might be able to meet up for a smoke


X2

Please do. It would be good to meet up. By the way Vinny, if you can make it up to Dublin at all. There's a meet up next Wednesday 12th. Cigars to be smoked.



"If it was raining soup, the Irish would go out with forks."
Brendan Behan
 
Posts: 2585 | Location: Dublin | Registered: November 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Guano:
Sorry to hear you were outbid. Ajay will be pleased to hear that Your auction money might be headed his way. I hope to be released on my own recognizance in time for the H&F Summer Cigar Party. Agnes may allow me to accompany her to Ireland for the holidays if I can get off work. Otherwise, I shall remain in the frozen north for the time being.


You should get her something really nice for Christmas to soften her up for that. I don't suggest a Cohiba pen.

I'll try to join you, if you go to Ireland. I've met you all individually, but not seen you together. You might be the same guy.
 
Posts: 1523 | Location: London, United Kingdom | Registered: August 07, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by See Gar:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Guano:
Sorry to hear you were outbid. Ajay will be pleased to hear that Your auction money might be headed his way. I hope to be released on my own recognizance in time for the H&F Summer Cigar Party. Agnes may allow me to accompany her to Ireland for the holidays if I can get off work. Otherwise, I shall remain in the frozen north for the time being.


You should get her something really nice for Christmas to soften her up for that. I don't suggest a Cohiba pen.

I'll try to join you, if you go to Ireland. I've met you all individually, but not seen you together. You might be the same guy.


I just finished my shopping for her at the online Boeing Company Store. I almost bought a pair of used 1st class seats from a 777.

Meeting you all in Ireland might just work. I won't know if I can get the time off until the third week in December. We'll be in Dublin, Wicklow and/or possibly Cork. Mad times but fun. I will definitely need a smoke!


"There are 10 kinds of people in the world, those that understand binary and those that don't.”
- Unknown
 
Posts: 600 | Location: Frostbite Falls | Registered: March 27, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Dr Guano:
quote:
Originally posted by See Gar:
quote:
Originally posted by Dr Guano:
Sorry to hear you were outbid. Ajay will be pleased to hear that Your auction money might be headed his way. I hope to be released on my own recognizance in time for the H&F Summer Cigar Party. Agnes may allow me to accompany her to Ireland for the holidays if I can get off work. Otherwise, I shall remain in the frozen north for the time being.


You should get her something really nice for Christmas to soften her up for that. I don't suggest a Cohiba pen.

I'll try to join you, if you go to Ireland. I've met you all individually, but not seen you together. You might be the same guy.


I just finished my shopping for her at the online Boeing Company Store. I almost bought a pair of used 1st class seats from a 777.

Meeting you all in Ireland might just work. I won't know if I can get the time off until the third week in December. We'll be in Dublin, Wicklow and/or possibly Cork. Mad times but fun. I will definitely need a smoke!


Great stuff. Do let me know if you're coming over. We'll get something together.



"If it was raining soup, the Irish would go out with forks."
Brendan Behan
 
Posts: 2585 | Location: Dublin | Registered: November 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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