Greg,

It would be fun to test the testers by having them guess the country of origin for wrapper filler,etc and leaf type etc..

It would be fun to see how the testers would guess these on a couple sticks. Give them some cigars with Conn, Afr Camm, etc.. and see if they can identify them correctly!

Even more fun have them blind folded and they have to guess based on taste and smell. It would make a cool vid!

thanks

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Originally posted by carld:

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:

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Originally posted by carld:

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:

quote:

Originally posted by carld:

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
Oh, you CA forum conspiracy theorists...just when I think you guys have noticed how some of our largest advertisers receive some of the lowest scores (and inversely, the highest scores by brands that don't even advertise) someone has to start in with the whole "bought ratings" philospohy. (Sigh) Part and parcel I suppose, and I understand cynical knee-jerk reactions, but if the ratings were cooked, my position would be irrelevant. Cigar Aficionado pays me full time to go out and buy cigars, costing the company anywhere from $4,000-$6,000 per tasting in cigars alone. This expense plus my salary plus all the invested time of orchestrating a blind review and having the panel smoke the cigars analytically, critically, etc...What would be the point of all this if ratings were fixed? The operation would amount to a lot of wasted money for a charade that no one even sees. The Cubans, for example, did very well this issue topping more than one of our categories. I ask the conspiracy theorists: Which one of our advertisers are we pandering to when we rate Cubans well?

Greg, you have been really great about responding to various threads in really non-defensive and insightful fashion. So lemme lay this out in the plainest way for you to respond to the central question that's relevant to this discussion.
To wit: It's pretty hard to argue that the vast majority of folks smoking a CC and a fair-equivalent non-CC would say the former is more flavorful, so how can they regularly draw equal ratings from cA? (I believe it's because the numerical weights given to non-taste considerations are purposefully over-weighted to help grade non-CCs on a curve, effectively.)

With all due respect, carld, I have no choice but to reject the premise you put forth that"It's pretty hard to argue that the vast majority of folks smoking a CC and a fair-equivalent non-CC would say the former is more flavorful."
My experience with cigar smokers is contrary to your statement (and I smoke all over the country, all year around. It's part of my job). It is also contrary to my personal tastes, and please know, at the risk of sounding like a pompous elitist, that I have access to some of the finest stock of Cuban cigars in the world, both vintage and recent production. THis being said, I hold the finest Nicaraguans and finest Dominicans in the same esteem as the finest Cubans. If you, carld, prefer the flavor of Cuban tobacco, then that is fine, and I have no problem with that. I cannot, however, agree that most of the US cigar-smoking population concurs with you.
As for your rating-on-the-curve theory, please allow me to give you some closure. There is no curve. I know this because I'm the one who does the math. There are only numbers, raw data and more numbers which translate to the ratings you see.
You know, carld, I conduct blind tastings in cigar clubs around the New York City metro area, and it's funny, the most inveterate smokers are shocked to see how they rated a cigar once I reveal the cigar's identities. Smoking blind has humbled even our tasting panel. It can be fun but it can also be disillusioning.

I think you missed my point. The methodology produces an EFFECTIVE curve.

Perhaps I did, carld. I am not sure what you mean by an effective curve or how it would play into a system that is the result of raw numbers, but I would like to know what you meant. Keep in mind, my math education does not go beyond Trigonometry.

Very simple: You should be weighting the ratings more toward flavor ratings but choose to over-weight construction and appearance.

15 points out of 100 for appearance/construction. The rule applies for all cigars rated. If you believe that this appointment creates an effective curve in favor of nonCubans, then by your own logic, you are saying that nonCubans are constructed better than Cubans. Is this what you really meant?

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
15 points out of 100 for appearance/construction. The rule applies for all cigars rated. If you believe that this appointment creates an effective curve in favor of nonCubans, then by your own logic, you are saying that nonCubans are constructed better than Cubans. Is this what you really meant?

Of course that's what I am suggesting. And I find it hard to believe that a knowledgeable guy like you wouldn't know there is a clear consensus on that point. Just like a knowledgeable guy like you would also know that the only people who prefer non-CCs are Americans with sporadic experience with CCs and in no position to compare them fairly.

quote:

Originally posted by bamawrx:
Greg,

It would be fun to test the testers by having them guess the country of origin for wrapper filler,etc and leaf type etc..

It would be fun to see how the testers would guess these on a couple sticks. Give them some cigars with Conn, Afr Camm, etc.. and see if they can identify them correctly!

Even more fun have them blind folded and they have to guess based on taste and smell. It would make a cool vid!

thanks

That defeats the purpose of the blind tasting. Gordon Mott has raised the issue many times that it is not the business of the tester to guess what the country of origin is. By doing that, it takes the focus off of objectively rating the cigar on its own merit...but from time to time we'll play that game when it doesn't count. Maybe we'll make a video of it someday.

quote:

Originally posted by carld:

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
15 points out of 100 for appearance/construction. The rule applies for all cigars rated. If you believe that this appointment creates an effective curve in favor of nonCubans, then by your own logic, you are saying that nonCubans are constructed better than Cubans. Is this what you really meant?

Of course that's what I am suggesting. And I find it hard to believe that a knowledgeable guy like you wouldn't know there is a clear consensus on that point. Just like a knowledgeable guy like you would also know that the only people who prefer non-CCs are Americans with sporadic experience with CCs and in no position to compare them fairly.

Again, carld, I do not accept what you present as "clear consensus." And to be honest, you saying so seems inconsistent with your former posts praising Cuban tobacco, but if you maintain, personally, that Cuban cigars are not as well made, yet taste better than nonCuban cigars, that is fine, but I will take this only as your opinion and I am sure that there are many on this Cuban board who agree and disagree with you. I respect your opinion as a smoker, but in no way hold your personal opinion to be represetnative of any majority or any conventional wisdom.
And to your point about Americans' sporadic exposure to Cuban cigars determining their tastes, the logic is completely reversible as to Europe's or China's sporadic exposure to world class, sometimes superior nonCuban cigars.

quote:

That defeats the purpose of the blind tasting. Gordon Mott has raised the issue many times that it is not the business of the tester to guess what the country of origin is. By doing that, it takes the focus off of objectively rating the cigar on its own merit

You miss the point that rating cigars is inherently subjective as all matters of taste are.

Obviously your ratings serve some purposes -- they sell magazines and, like the BCS ratings, prompt no end of discussion and argument. But the simple fact is that the ratings are otherwise useless. If someone disagrees with how a cigar is rated, the rating must have been bought. Too funny.

But many thanks for your comments on this thread, Greg.

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:

quote:

Originally posted by carld:

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
15 points out of 100 for appearance/construction. The rule applies for all cigars rated. If you believe that this appointment creates an effective curve in favor of nonCubans, then by your own logic, you are saying that nonCubans are constructed better than Cubans. Is this what you really meant?

Of course that's what I am suggesting. And I find it hard to believe that a knowledgeable guy like you wouldn't know there is a clear consensus on that point. Just like a knowledgeable guy like you would also know that the only people who prefer non-CCs are Americans with sporadic experience with CCs and in no position to compare them fairly.

Again, carld, I do not accept what you present as "clear consensus." And to be honest, you saying so seems inconsistent with your former posts praising Cuban tobacco, but if you maintain, personally, that Cuban cigars are not as well made, yet taste better than nonCuban cigars, that is fine, but I will take this only as your opinion and I am sure that there are many on this Cuban board who agree and disagree with you. I respect your opinion as a smoker, but in no way hold your personal opinion to be represetnative of any majority or any conventional wisdom.
And to your point about Americans' sporadic exposure to Cuban cigars determining their tastes, the logic is completely reversible as to Europe's or China's sporadic exposure to world class, sometimes superior nonCuban cigars.

You've really morphed into quite the non-CCs apologist in the course of this discussion, Greg. But methinks your zealousness in that regard is an awkward fit with your claim that cA doesn't want to skew its ratings in favor of (non-CC) advertisers. In any event, as always thanks for your time and availability--not to mention running a terrific bunch of cigar forums and website.

Please understand that all cigars are weighed equally, blindly, at face value and with no consideration to origin and every consideration to construction, combustion, flavor, balance and resonance. We smoke a lot of cigars here, carld. Many of which are great Cubans, some, not so great. Same thing for cigars from other countries. If you feel that this philosophy makes me a zealous, nonCuban apologist, so be it. Again, you've presented an opinion about the integrity of the ratings based on your personal taste for Cuban tobacco. What more can I say?

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:

quote:

Originally posted by bamawrx:
Greg,

It would be fun to test the testers by having them guess the country of origin for wrapper filler,etc and leaf type etc..

It would be fun to see how the testers would guess these on a couple sticks. Give them some cigars with Conn, Afr Camm, etc.. and see if they can identify them correctly!

Even more fun have them blind folded and they have to guess based on taste and smell. It would make a cool vid!

thanks

That defeats the purpose of the blind tasting. Gordon Mott has raised the issue many times that it is not the business of the tester to guess what the country of origin is. By doing that, it takes the focus off of objectively rating the cigar on its own merit...but from time to time we'll play that game when it doesn't count. Maybe we'll make a video of it someday.

Yeah as a game, entertainment, etc... Possibly have some good natured competition and trash talk. Not serious just fun.

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
Then yes, there is definitely a psychological effect. It's definitely a component in many cases, and sometimes, yes the determinant. You can't help this when you have a medium as charged and storied as the Cuban cigar. There are two things that are often at play here: mystique and snobbery. This is not to say that Cuban fans are either mesmerized or snobbish or mesmerized snobs. Some of my favorite cigars are Cubans and I trust that most people on this forum have a genuine love for the taste of Cuban Tobacco. Anyone's epicurean convictions can be put to the test with a simple blind sampling whether it be wine or otherwise. The results are always interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
Please understand that all cigars are weighed equally, blindly, at face value and with no consideration to origin and every consideration to construction, combustion, flavor, balance and resonance. We smoke a lot of cigars here, carld. Many of which are great Cubans, some, not so great. Same thing for cigars from other countries. If you feel that this philosophy makes me a zealous, nonCuban apologist, so be it. Again, you've presented an opinion about the integrity of the ratings based on your personal taste for Cuban tobacco. What more can I say?

I have a suggestion which might settle this once and for all -- and it would make a nice 2 page feature in the cigar section :

Invite 6 to 8 of us for a blind tasting which you can devise as devilishly as you wish. We pay for our travel and hotel ; you provide the stogies and the location.

I personnaly would volunteer for that and I'm sure the results would be as surprising as the "Judgement of Paris of 1976". Say, here's your title : "The Judgment of New York of 2008" Subtitle : "CA Forum members awed by results of blind tasting"

Not terribly on topic, but not to far off topic. I just wonder what Pepin Garcia would say if you asked him what was better, NC's or CC's. I think his answer would actually shock some members here on the board.

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Originally posted by Gregory Mottola:
Finest Cuban stock. Sadly, it is not all created equally, and few people have access to vintage Cuban cigars...1492's for example, Por Larranaga Magnums, or the entire gamut of bespoke Cubans before Castro...the circles who have access to these cigars are very limited, even when the 1492 humidors were first disseminated. This point is completely relevant in showing that my cigar comparisons between all countries are conducted smoking some of the best samples around and being able to put the comparrisons in the context of aged vs. nonaged.

No, it is not a relevant argument. It doesn't really matter how many rare and aged Cuban cigars there are out there, and it doesn't matter if you have access to them all. The comparison is with super top shelf NC's and regular production Cubans, which are well within reach of all the vets and most of the regulars who frequent various cc forums. So quite frankly, you don't hold an upper hand or some secret knowledge over any of us when it comes to this discussion.

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On another note, I still maintain my position that Cubans are not the overwhelming favorite. As for Cubans being the favorite on this forum, that is not surprising. It is, afterall called Cuba and Cuban Cigars.

Well you would then be going against the grain of all that is obvious in the world markets and on all cigar forums across the board.

In any case, I'm not really sure what your argument is here. The only people who would be qualified to make the judgement of cc over nc are people who visit the cuban section and actually have experience to post. Obviously people who mostly frequent the nc section can't even put their two cents in on this topic.

I think this rating debate is getting out of hand.. here is my 2p:

CA ratings are only a subjective of 4-5 people. Yes, those people are quite knowledgeable, but I for one don't know how good their palate is. I know I am getting into muddy waters, but would any of the CA reviewers claim that they have as good a palate as a master blender? Quite possibly, but somehow I doubt it.

So, getting under consideration that the CA ratings are a subjective view of 4-5 people, what is the significance of these ratings? From what I understand, the CA ratings can make or break a cigar. CA is a highly regarded magazine that lots of cigar smokers read, hence it seems that good ratings correlate with high sales. Especially for new brands, a high CA rating is crucial to put them in the market. There is a video of the Gloria Cubana maker, who says that their cigars started doing well after they got a good rating from CA.

And here lies the potential problem, and here is why people are getting bit agitated in this thread. CA ratings are correlated with sales.

I think people should take CA ratings only as indications of what is out there and most and foremost TRUST THEIR OWN PALATES! Don't be afraid to disagree with Suckling, Savona et al. Yes, they are knowledgeable, but they do not possess the gold standard in cigar tasting.Hell, even master blenders would not claim that!

Always keep in mind that their ratings are subjective, even using blind tasting (which is a huge issue and will not get into now)

Another point I would like to raise is how difficult is to quantify senses, such as taste Given that I rarely see ratings less than 90, the deviation between a very good cigar and a classic is only 5 points, which can be picked up from any of the 4 rating categories, of which only one is directly related to taste.

This means that a cigar that might loose a couple of points in the construction category for a not so nice wrapper, and a couple of points in the subjective judgment category (due to the bad wrapper), then you have a cigar that could be a 94, but is a 90. Suckling in a blog lately mentioned how wrapper quality has very little to do with flavour,and how he has smoked some amazing cigars with ugly wrappers and the opposite. So a very flavourful cigar might not get a very high rating, for a variable that is not related with flavour (which at least for me is the only reason I smoke cigars). So I have a big objection with the CA rating system, but I will leave it here.

As I said before, CA ratings are immensely useful, BUT: take them as a reference, as you might take a film or book review. But learn to trust your own palate and sense of taste.

quote:

Originally posted by sobek:
The only people who would be qualified to make the judgement of cc over nc are people who visit the cuban section and actually have experience to post. Obviously people who mostly frequent the nc section can't even put their two cents in on this topic.

My question to you is how many NC's have you smoked in your cigar career, and what makes you more qualified to say that CC's are hands down better smokes (construction, taste, and appearance) than NC's. If anything it seems to me that smokers with a balanced exposure to CC's and NC's are better qualified to put their "two cents in" on this topic. I'm not talking about people out there that have smoked one or two CC's in their lifetime, but have smoked about a 2-1 or 3-1 ratio of NC's to CC's. I would guess that the US has more people that fall into this category than any other nation due to the fact that CC's are not readily availabe. Judging by your comments in this thread, I would guess that you don't even look at the NC section when you go into your local B&M because you think smoking NC's are far beneath you. I must admit that I feel truely sorry for you because you are missing some great smokes with some of the NC's that are out there today.

my comment on CCs vs NCs. Unfortunately, here in Europe (and in the UK particularly) NCs are very expensive, more expensive than CCs. A box of padron 2000 costs almost the same as a box of Esplendidos... I cannot buy NCs from the US, as due to customs I would have to play even more..so I have very limited exposure to NCs, which I think is truly a shame, as I am sure we are missing some great smokes. (that said if anyone knows of a source in the US that ships securely to Europe I would be glad to know)

quote:

Originally posted by YoungHerfer:
Judging by your comments in this thread, I would guess that you don't even look at the NC section when you go into your local B&M because you think smoking NC's are far beneath you. I must admit that I feel truely sorry for you because you are missing some great smokes with some of the NC's that are out there today.

I live in the US, as do most of the people who post in this forum. I started on NCs and smoked them exclusively for many years. At some point, I got bored with most NCs and moved to the boutique brands and top shelf stuff. At the same time, I started slowly with CCs. Smoked both NC and CC for a while and then at some point, all NCs started tasting either very boring, harsh, flavorless, etc.

So don't feel sorry for me. I already know what I'm not missing.

quote:

Originally posted by sobek:
all NCs started tasting either very boring, harsh, flavorless, etc.

What NC's were you smoking? I can think of several lines of NC's that don't come close to that description.

My wife only likes the green olives. Now, I only like the black olives. (The green ones are only good after they have been soaking in vodka and vermouth for a while.) We both think the other is missing out. Neither of us are, or maybe both of us are. It doesn't really matter. Smoke what you like.