Had one for the first time last Friday. IMpeccably constructed, nicely filled Sublime with a dark silky wrapper and lots of dried fruit aromas to the wrapper. Cigar was on the wet side, no doubt overhumidified for the trip over. Foot took to flame immediately, burning evenly showing an initial snap of leather that sweetened rendering those same dark fruity notes found in the tobacco's dry fragrance. This sweet and salty combination developed nicely until about a third of the cigar where things took a slightly dirtier turn. The cigar remained earthy, losing its balance, sweetness replaced by greeness and a faint vinegar aftertaste. Granted, the cigar is young, and I smoked it before the official release date. It needs more time. I don't expect it out until the Fall and look forward to smoking it again at the end of the year and for years to come. I'm optimistic about its potential.

I was just thinking about these the other day. Thanks for the review.

Nice review.

The one I smoked didn't seem to lose it's balance in the final 1/3rd. If anything, it got better toward the end.

Is it possible to to predict the characteristics of a cigar much like the experts do with wine and the purchase of futures? Someone once pointed to the elusive "cogeners" (whatever that's supposed to mean) that give you a sense of what a cigar will be like, but I don't buy it. Yet, lots of us talk about the fact that, oh, in a year, this cigar is going to be a classic, or something like that. Where do we come up with such conclusions? And what factors can we point to that suggest that time would take the edge off of characteristics that are couched in terms of 'bad' like earthy, lack of balance, etc.?

What are the criteria by which we should judge whether a cigar will improve or become a classic over time? Any thoughts??

My guess would be heredity!
As for the EL's and RE's I suppose we have to rely on the skills that master blenders decide for that particular vitola.
Someone once said that ALL Cuban cigars benefit from a good long sleep.
I'd like to hear from anyone who can say that long term storage under the proper conditions worsened a cigar.

Not a matter of worsening, but at what point does a cigar reach its peak, and why? Or...what about allowing a cigar to sit too long...does the cigar continue to improve? No doubt, as tobacco ages, elements are leeched and changes do take place. And what about the materials used by rollers and blenders? What if some are sort of weak, and won't stand up to ageing?

What do we look for in terms of ageing cigars, I suppose is the question. What are the criteria that we use to say that this or that cigar will be great with some age on it, or that it should be put away for 5 - 10 years? What ARE the, um, "cogeners"?

quote:

Originally posted by kechke:
My guess would be heredity!
As for the EL's and RE's I suppose we have to rely on the skills that master blenders decide for that particular vitola.
Someone once said that ALL Cuban cigars benefit from a good long sleep.
I'd like to hear from anyone who can say that long term storage under the proper conditions worsened a cigar.

I had a box of Monti A's and a box of Monti C's that were unsmokable out of the box. Real crap. But after 2 to 3 years in storage they matured into outstanding smokes. Both boxes were purchased at the Partagas Factory in Havana (not Jamaica).

One box in particular, a box of Cohiba V's (1995), was amazing out of the box and turned into stellar smokes after 5 additional years of storage. One of the few smokes that I rate over 98 after 5 years of aging.

Other boxes that I have (Cohiba VI's, Hoyo EL), have not improved. None have gotten worse through extended aging.

A. Did you know this when you got them?

B. What specifically were you looking for/what specifically did you notice to lead you to the conclusion that the cigars would age well?

C. What would you recommend to others who are looking for something that will be stellar in 5 - 10 years, as opposed to a cigar that will just get old, and not much better than it is after a year or so? What would you recommend that they look for? Earthiness, spice, a certain aroma, appearance...? What contributes to a vintage that turns out to be a classic?

When it comes to wine, there are many factors that the oenophile looks to...length of growing season, amount of water, the condition of the grapes during crush, during initial fermentation...all of those factors give those who study wine, anyway, a sense of how the wine will be expected to hold up. What about cigars??? Granted, with wine, there's much more consistency because the bottles come from barrels that come from tanks, and with cigars, each one is just a little different. But what ARE the factors other than just hope, prayer and a wing...which I presume is meant by using the term, 'cogeners' to explain everything...?

And Kechke...you are way too experienced to resort to guesswork...

Thats odd I thought you could find some really nice ones in Jamaica......lol I am looking forward to trying one of these. Thanks alot for the review I am on the edge of my seat.

quote:

Originally posted by ryj7x47:
Is it possible to to predict the characteristics of a cigar much like the experts do with wine and the purchase of futures? Someone once pointed to the elusive "cogeners" (whatever that's supposed to mean) that give you a sense of what a cigar will be like, but I don't buy it. Yet, lots of us talk about the fact that, oh, in a year, this cigar is going to be a classic, or something like that. Where do we come up with such conclusions? And what factors can we point to that suggest that time would take the edge off of characteristics that are couched in terms of 'bad' like earthy, lack of balance, etc.?

What are the criteria by which we should judge whether a cigar will improve or become a classic over time? Any thoughts??

Not a difficult question to answer. If one were to taste a set of flavors and a subset of flavors, but they were faint, green, or not melding harmoniously, one could predict that with age, the flavors will develop, synchronize, and grow out of that young, verdant-tasting phase. Ever eat unripe fruit? How do you know that it is unripe? You know it is unripe because you've tasted fruit that has matured to show its sweetness. Unripe fruit can have a bitter, green taste that will disappear with a little time. Even with aged, properly fermented tobacco, the final rolled product needs time to ripen just like a green banana. It does not take any great clairvoyance to predict that with a little time a certain cigar will taste better anymore than knowing a green banana will sweeten within a week. It just takes some experience, and then one can guess, especially those who have purchased entire boxes of cigars and revisited them each year, tasting and noting the differences. After this, predictions are easy. Granted, they're not always 100% accurate. I've had cigars defy my predictions before, but usually, one can make a pretty good educated guess.

Maybe I should not have traded away all my sour Dante 109's?

For some reason I can't get my head wrapped around the comparison of green/ripe fruit to a green/cured/fermented leaf.
Have you ever tasted a green versus cured tobacco leaf? I have, let me tell you the diference is a light year away from green/ripe fruit.

Green-tasting tobacco, not green tobacco. Just like wine can taste green. Young. You get the idea.

Greg, your apple analogy refers to it coming to fruition if you let it sit for a while to ripen, but I think we all agree that CCs always get better with age. The thing I'm wondering (and assuming what ryj is asking) is how do you know it's going to be a great apple when it ripens instead of just mediocre. How do you know a cigar will become a classic instead of just ok?

quote:

Originally posted by Boknows:
Greg, your apple analogy refers to it coming to fruition if you let it sit for a while to ripen, but I think we all agree that CCs always get better with age. The thing I'm wondering (and assuming what ryj is asking) is how do you know it's going to be a great apple when it ripens instead of just mediocre. How do you know a cigar will become a classic instead of just ok?

You make your assessment by the flavors you are already tasting. If they are present, but unpronounced and not totally synched, they show promise.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Gregory Mottola,

quote:

Green-tasting tobacco, not green tobacco. Just like wine can taste green. Young. You get the idea.

I guess that after 69 years my taste buds are worn out. Or as it was once said by an esteemed poster. "perhaps I have the palate of a billy goat"