I thought you may not see this buried in the post, so here's my question:
quote:
Let me weigh in on the question about whether or not Cubans and Non-Cubans should be rated separately.
In the early days of the magazine, we used to group the cigars by country of origin...but we still tasted them blind together.
I think there are some inherent problems in splitting them up like that, and they go right to heart of the issue of keeping as much objectivity as possible in the tasting process. If I knew I was tasting a group of Cuban cigars, it would be a whole lot harder to keep bias out of the scoring. (Yes, I too love a great Cuban cigar.) One thing I've learned over the years when the cigars are all introduced into my humidor is that I can't "second-guess" the cigar because I get fooled. (Oh, I bet this is a Partagas Lusitania, so it must be good...and it turns out to be Honduran with a corojo wrapper from Nicaragua) No matter how I try to remain objective about the cigar, those thoughts do creep in. And, if I'm not certain about a cigar, because they've all been put in together, I'm better able to taste the cigar on its merits...not whether or not it's from Cuba.
There is famous story about a wine taster being told to pick the Bordeaux first growth he is drinking, and when he picks Mouton, it turns out it is a cheap jug wine. Embarassing? Yes. But it shows what happens to the mind with the power of suggestion.
So, no matter how honest I think I am being, if I know it's a Cuban, it will taint my final analysis, and it wouldn't always be toward the top end of the scale. If I'm smoking a Cuban that isn't living up to its lofty reputation, it might get marked down lower than it should be too.
That raises the issue of cigars being tested against each other; I guarantee that good ones make bad ones worse, and vice-versa, so in the end, having them tasted altogether increases the possibility of them being ranked using the same criteria.
I never argued that we have a perfect system; as you know, I'm one of the first people to say that our tastings are subjective, and therefore, open to debate. But I do feel that we have done as good a job as is possible to eliminate as many of bias-creating factors as we can. That means the cigars have to rise or fall on what makes them up.
We are always reviewing our system; and testing ourselves against each other, and talking about each other's scores after a tasting is finished. We've done group tastings too, to check each other's calibration on the four factors we use to rate cigars. It's a tough job but somebody has to do it.
Gordon,
I don't understand how it's truly blind because Habanos have a very distinctive pre-light smell. And to other people, a very distinct second-hand smell.
I thought I answered it on the Cuba thread. But I'll be specific...yes, many Cubans do a have particular pre-light smell, but again, I've been fooled enough times to not rely on that any more. I suppose if you spend enough time going over every factor that distinguishes a Cuban cigar, you would end up with a fairly good prediction of what it is before you smoke it. But it takes time and effort. If you do a quick look at the construction, wrapper color etc., you can't always be sure. Again, i would argue that it has gotten harder in recent years. Nestor Plascencia's corojo wrappers from Nicaragua are a case in point.
If what you're asking is can I tell the difference, I would says, yes I can, but it's not a one or two second evaluation that leads to that kind of certainty...it takes time, and what I'm generally looking for in our taste test, is what happens when a cigar is lit. I'm not trying to prove to myself that I can always pick a Cuban; that's not the point of our tasting procedure. I think again, over the last five years, it's gotten harder to do that anyway...especially since there are so many Cubans that have hit the market during that period that are not very good.
Posts: 56 | Location: New York, NY | Registered: April 26, 2002
Gordon, would you mind jotting down a list of those recently released Cuban offerings that "are not very good?"
I've not secured any EL's since Sublimes. The other new releases that I have had a chance to try have been uniformly pretty damned good for my palate, at least.
Posts: 4229 | Location: Virginia Beach, VA | Registered: July 18, 2002
I certainly think another issue that can't be avoided is the fact that many N/C may have 5-6 years of age before being smoked (the 1964 and 1926 a case in point)
I would argue that some of the Cubans that are not smoking great may be going through a sick period. Some say that more full bodied smokes like the PSD4 or BBF may need a few years to get out of the sick period and 5 or more years to reach their potential, when it could argued that NC are as good as they're going to get.
I can tell you nobody who makes cigars in Cuba would say that their cigars go through a sick period. They believe what they are producing are ready to smoke because they are using properly cured, fermented and aged filler as well as good wrapper. But I agree that well-made Cubans certainly improve with age.
Posts: 152 | Location: Tuscany | Registered: April 26, 2002
Originally posted by James Suckling: I can tell you nobody who makes cigars in Cuba would say that their cigars go through a sick period. They believe what they are producing are ready to smoke because they are using properly cured, fermented and aged filler as well as good wrapper. But I agree that well-made Cubans certainly improve with age.
Hey James good to hear from you, perhaps what I've heard was borne from the time when cuban's were making too many smokes, I remember reading that they are increasing their aging periods for certain tobaccos in 2007 above the increased aging period of 2005-2006. I would agree that many of the 2006 cigars have been smoking pretty well for being young.
My question would be for cigars from the 2001-2004 period (which I have many of) what were the aging periods for the filler/binder/wrapper during that period ?
This is the info I received about current production.
In the warehouse, the leaf is stored to age. Since late 2005/ 2006 Habanos has increased the minimum aging times as follows:
* Wrappers, generally - 1 year * Wrappers, limited editions - 2 years * Wrappers, new Cohiba Maduro - 5 years * Full flavoured Ligero fillers - 3 years * Medium-flavoured Seco fillers - 2 years * Light -flavoured Volado fillers - 1 year * Volado binders - 1 year
I believe I remember reading something about the wrapper aging periods being increased, I think it was 2 years for all wrapper and 3 for LE but I could be wrong, I'm searching for the source. With that said, as long as the tobacco is aged I'm under the belief that after the cigars is rolled it needs additional box age to allow the tobaccos to marry..
Originally posted by James Suckling: I can tell you nobody who makes cigars in Cuba would say that their cigars go through a sick period. They believe what they are producing are ready to smoke because they are using properly cured, fermented and aged filler as well as good wrapper. But I agree that well-made Cubans certainly improve with age.
So, how come my Siglo IVs from 03 are only starting to taste good? I mean they were harsh and they are not counterfeits (bought the box at LCDH in Montreal).
________________________ "Tobacco is my favorite vegetable." --FZ
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." --FZ too
* Wrappers, generally - 1 year * Wrappers, limited editions - 2 years * Wrappers, new Cohiba Maduro - 5 years * Full flavoured Ligero fillers - 3 years * Medium-flavoured Seco fillers - 2 years * Light -flavoured Volado fillers - 1 year * Volado binders - 1 year
You're forgetting:
* it's only a cold sore * I own my own Mercedes * the mortgage is assumable
There's a lot of hype about this, and nobody really knows for sure, but I call BS.
___________________ Santa Cabilla...patron saint of Quericæstan. VIVE COULTER (not Ann)! VIVE CPD! Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go...(Oscar Wilde)
Posts: 10231 | Location: Avenida de las Nalgas, Quericæstan | Registered: May 02, 2002
Plus - I never went for this "sick period" thing either. Yes, cigars do improve, as has been stated, but this period of sickness was the invention of Gerard he used as an excuse to whet people's appetites by telling them what a great stock and selection he had, but that he could not sell because they were not properly aged and were in the period of sickness. Again, I call BS. It's a sham.
What is good to someone at one particular given time may not be so good for someone else at that time...so if your Siglo's were harsh to you, maybe the sensation you experienced was what others would call 'strength' or flavor...taste being relative and all. Another person might say, wow, those Siglo's sure were good when we got them, but they just fell off in terms of flavor after 3 years.
___________________ Santa Cabilla...patron saint of Quericæstan. VIVE COULTER (not Ann)! VIVE CPD! Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go...(Oscar Wilde)
Posts: 10231 | Location: Avenida de las Nalgas, Quericæstan | Registered: May 02, 2002
You must have paid *dearly* for that box at the LCDH in Montreal, on Sherbrooke O. if my memory has not failed me. At first I thought you were referring to Siglo VI since those were released in '03 but I see it is Siglo IV, so at least those are a little less pricey.
I really miss Montreal- used to go twice a year but haven't been able to visit lately due to family, work, etc. I still have smoked meat and Fairmont bagels delivered however.
Originally posted by ryj7x47: Plus - I never went for this "sick period" thing either. Yes, cigars do improve, as has been stated, but this period of sickness was the invention of Gerard he used as an excuse to whet people's appetites by telling them what a great stock and selection he had, but that he could not sell because they were not properly aged and were in the period of sickness. Again, I call BS. It's a sham.
What is good to someone at one particular given time may not be so good for someone else at that time...so if your Siglo's were harsh to you, maybe the sensation you experienced was what others would call 'strength' or flavor...taste being relative and all. Another person might say, wow, those Siglo's sure were good when we got them, but they just fell off in terms of flavor after 3 years.
I must admit that I feel ambivalent towards that "sick period" thing. Gerard is not the only one supporting it's existence: Min Ron Nee, among others, does. That does not mean it is so, of course, but I have yet to come to a conclusion on this issue.
As for strength vs. harshness, well, I have had plenty of Cohibas before and I have always enjoyed their generous, earthy, leathery full flavor and I generally prefer full flavored cigars anyway. I have also several Sig IIIs from the same year and never had a problem with them. And even with the aforementionned Sig IVs, from the 3 I smoked last summer and fall, one was perfect, one was so-so and one still had that "harshness". Sick period? I don't know, but something along those lines would certainly explain it.
________________________ "Tobacco is my favorite vegetable." --FZ
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." --FZ too
You must have paid *dearly* for that box at the LCDH in Montreal, on Sherbrooke O. if my memory has not failed me. At first I thought you were referring to Siglo VI since those were released in '03 but I see it is Siglo IV, so at least those are a little less pricey.
I really miss Montreal- used to go twice a year but haven't been able to visit lately due to family, work, etc. I still have smoked meat and Fairmont bagels delivered however.
Yeah, I'm still paying the loan I got to buy them...
But, hey, as you know, there are plenty of things in Montreal that make up for the expensive smokes. Ah! Fairmont bagels, mmmmm! Think I'll call my spouse right now and ask her to pick some up, hot from the wood oven (She works for Ubisoft next door on Saint-Laurent).
________________________ "Tobacco is my favorite vegetable." --FZ
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." --FZ too
Originally posted by donkost: You must have paid *dearly* for that box at the LCDH in Montreal, on Sherbrooke O. if my memory has not failed me.
Was up there last summer. Very, very expensive. If I lived in Canada I couldn't afford to smoke cigars.
Well, I guess you would do like me: buy some here occasionnally, when you can't fight the "urge" or wan't something specific, like, right now. But, mostly, buy cigars when you travel: CCs in Europe or Cuba, and NCs in the USA.
This said, even given the higher prices of alcohol, gas and tobacco, the cost of living here (in Quebec) is comparable to many places in the States. A place that really knocked my socks off was London: cigars are about the same price as here but everything else is so freakin' expensive there.
________________________ "Tobacco is my favorite vegetable." --FZ
"Government is the Entertainment Division of the military-industrial complex." --FZ too
